King James Bible

[Kelly2363]

18 minutes ago, Melinda12 said:

Well done. We each have our own way. 

 

For sure the Lord uses all of us in different ways. But I read your comment and noted that you used a form of language that is drawn from the 2010 Equality Act in specificity, the precepts (protected characteristics) that are mandated in section 149 the Public Sector Equality Duty. And in your express words I am referring to the use of the term or none in your comment. "Of course I am respectful of anyone's religion or none. I am certainly not going to argue with intelligent friends whose friendship I value. That would be pure arrogance which is counter productive." which you posted to David. 

You began your OP by saying "The thing that provokes me a lot is when ignorant non-believers dismiss the Bible as 'fairy stories'. I actually had a close friend years ago who said that. She was a very intelligent woman, a devoted friend but an atheist. The friendship did not last. One reason being the disrespect towards my faith that she felt so free to express."

The thing is - it is exactly the opposite of what you ought to hold as dear when your friends insult your faith. They cannot be saved by respecting your faith. They can only be saved by seeing their true condition. Better to let them insult you and to show love - than to befriend them in order to exact an intellectual precept which they ought to know if they are intelligent - yet to endlessly respect their unbelief. 

 

[Starise]

On 8/19/2021 at 9:23 AM, Dennis1209 said:

Pertaining to smart atheists and secular philosophers:

1 Corinthians 3:19 (KJV) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

For a choir to harmonize, sync, and stay in tune; they have to sing off the same sheet of music. Likewise with translations and versions of the Bible. I'm sure everyone has experienced the following:

Our church is mostly KJV, we have had guest pastors for Homecoming and revivals, using say ESV or other translations. Turn to such and such book, chapter and read along with me. This also happens when I visit other churches. I don't know about anyone else, but to follow along, I have to mentally drown out what is being read from a different translation or I will get lost and confused, if I try to follow along in my translation. 

If a choir is singing together using different words, they cannot harmonize, and the musical notes, tone and flow would be in chaos. 

Preacher: Let's all stand as we read together John 3:1-18.

Congregation: Using 5 or more different translations. It would sound like trying to listen to every single conversation at a crowded restaurant, all at the same time.

It seems to me; scripture memorization would be more difficult floating between translations?

Many are aware of the complexity of the Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic language, especially translating it to English word for word, to make an understandable sentence. In many instances it cannot be translated word for word, or there are no single English words for the translation. 

A translation becomes very complex with the original word meanings, then throw in what the translator thinks is the meaning of the original word. How we got our Bible(s) and from which manuscripts and codex's is much too long to discuss.

The Lord promised to preserve His word forever. Something maybe worthwhile to consider. The KJV is written in such a way, a child can understand the Gospel. Is there any doubt, the best-selling book of all time, was turned into a cash cow starting in the nineteenth century, now with hundreds of translations and versions? 

Look at the first few pages of the translation of the Bible you use. Do you see a bunch of annotated copyrights? Questions: Exactly what is a copyright, what is restricted, and why is it there? Most importantly, would the Lord allow and permit His word to be restricted?

I personally believe, the best overall and most accurate translation from copies of the original manuscripts, is the KJV. Add to that the wonderful Old English poetic style and flavor, I love it. 

This is not to say all other translation are bad or corrupt. How many people have been saved using other than the KJV? Like many, I have the tools and resources for lexicon study. Sometimes I will use different translations to get a better word meaning or understanding when studying scripture. 

Many are KJV only, and I personally don't see anything wrong with that. There are no royalties involved or paid, no copy and quote restrictions of someone's translation of a translation, etc. 

One last personal thought that comes to mind. Write one technical sentence on a piece of paper, with a minimum of twenty words on a piece of paper. Line up twenty people and read what you wrote to person number one. The rest being out of hearing range. Person #1 walks down to person #2 and quotes what they heard and remember from person #1. This continues down to person #20. How much did that original sentence change from what was written down originally? Was it significantly corrupted? 

What's the point of this silly example? Copyright! Last check, to obtain a copyright, your work has to be at least 15% different from the source that is used. What do you have when those 15% keep combining, compiling upon one another? How and why do we have so many translations and versions of the Bible since the 19th century?

Recommended resource:  http://stewartonbibleschool.org/VITAL/KJV/INDEX.html

Congregational reading should be organized. Our church has all of the scripture text in the bulletin. You need not even bring a bible to church if you don't feel the need to. All congregational readings are printed in the bulletin. Our sunday school handouts are the same. All text is there.

I have been in churches where the pastor reads whatever version he has and it isn't my version. That can be potentially confusing since your brain is trying to interpret two things at once and make sense of both.

Sad to say, copyright for the purposes of profit is a large part of Christian books and music including bible versions. I have to wonder what Paul would have said about the way things are done now? Some people are undoubtedly in it for a $ and we gladly shell it out in our churches instead of developing local talent. Maybe this is why the KJV is more common because there are really no copyright constraints on it? If book printing or christian music are your livelihood I guess you want to make sure you can eat. It's a dilemma of sorts with adherents on both sides.

I can only speak for myself. TO ME it would be far more important to get the word out than to make sure someone wasn't copying it, even going so far for some as to sue over it. In the case of music a small handful of christian musicians get filthy rich with local musicians buying up their material for the opportunity to play it. In the case of the Holy Bible, people never give a second thought to buying a version that's copyrighted including me, until I stop to consider the possible implications.

[R. Hartono]

On 8/19/2021 at 4:27 AM, David1701 said:

Wait a minute!  You are "respectful" of their atheism?!  How about this:

Ps. 14:1 (WEB)

The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt.
They have done abominable works.
There is no one who does good.

 Be patient with unbelievers as James 5:7 says be patient like farmers......

Melinda is right we shud not bang the unbelievers at the head with our Bible or storm them with TOA speakers on the streets.

On 8/19/2021 at 4:43 PM, Melinda12 said:

Of course I am respectful of anyone's religion or none. I am certainly not going to argue with intelligent friends whose friendship I value. That would be pure arrogance which is counter productive. 

My way is to engage in proper conversation about things as opportunities arise, not ram Jesus and the Bible down their throats and insult their views. 

In short, I actually have friends of all kinds  and nurture them. Some are atheist, gay, Catholic, Jehovah's Witnesses, one is a Mormon . If any of them really disrespect my beliefs then I take steps to stop the friendship. As they would with me. 

Surely it is good to be friends and then work subtly to set an example, be civilised and hope to show them Christ in time. Quickest way to lose friends is bang them on the head with your Bible! 

 

[missmuffet]

On 8/18/2021 at 5:31 PM, R. Hartono said:

 

That is not the purpose of Christmas spirit, Jesus was born for all unbelievers.

Born again Christians are not to be unevenly yolked in their close friendships or take advise from unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 15:33

 Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.”

Proverbs 12:26

The righteous should choose his friends carefully,
For the way of the wicked leads them astray.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[David1701]

7 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

 Be patient with unbelievers as James 5:7 says be patient like farmers......

Melinda is right we shud not bang the unbelievers at the head with our Bible or storm them with TOA speakers on the streets.

 

You can be patient, without  respecting false religion!

You can share the gospel, without respecting false religion; in fact, how can you share the gospel with conviction, if you respect false religion?

Why are you using pejorative and loaded language, about preaching the gospel?  Paul rejoiced that the gospel was preached, whether in a right attitude or a wrong one.

Phil. 1:15-18 (KJV)

 15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
  16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
  17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
  18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

[Waggles]

If the KJV is, as claimed by some, so God approved and inerrant and the best - then how come so many of its verses are simply poor translations and often wrong wording? 

John 3:7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 
3:8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.  [KJV]

The Roman Catholic Douay-Rheims translation does a much better job at the correct wording:

John 3:7  Wonder not that I said to thee: You must be born again. 
3:8  The Spirit breatheth where he will and thou hearest his voice: but thou knowest not whence he cometh and whither he goeth. So is every one that is born of the Spirit. 

The superior and most correct translation is by Ivan Panin's [NENT]

John 3:7  Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born from above. 
3:8  The Spirit breatheth where he willeth, and thou hearest his *voice, but knowest not whence he cometh, and whither he goeth: so is every one *born of the Spirit. 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Waggles

[Waggles]

The KJV contains many many errors - such as:

1John 5:6  This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 
5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 
5:8  And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.  [KJV]

Other translations have corrected this interpolation with the following:

 1John 5:6  This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. 
5:7  And it is the Spirit that witnesseth, because the Spirit is the truth. 
5:8  Because the witnessing ones are three: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.  [NENT]

1John 5:6 This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. 7 And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8 There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree.  [RSV]

Edited August 21, 2021 by Waggles

[Waggles]

Another woeful and very incorrect translation that the KJV is guilty of is found in Deuteronomy 32: and Michael Heiser has much to comment about on the doctrinal problems that arise from this mistranslation.

Deuteronomy 32:7  Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee. 
32:8  When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. 
32:9  For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.  [KJV]

Deuteronomy 32:7  Remember the days of old; consider the years of many generations; ask your father, and he will show you, your elders, and they will tell you. 
32:8  When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. 
32:9  But the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.  [ESV]

This makes much more sense and takes us back to the tower of Babylon rebellion in Genesis 11: - and that the ruler of this world and the nations are the angels who were condemned to Earth for their rebellion. 

Genesis 11:8  So the LORD dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. 
11:9  Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth. And from there the LORD dispersed them over the face of all the earth.  [ESV]

[Kelly2363]

32 minutes ago, Waggles said:

Another woeful and very incorrect translation that the KJV is guilty of is found in Deuteronomy 32: and Michael Heiser has much to comment about on the doctrinal problems that arise from this mistranslation.

Deuteronomy 32:7  Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee. 
32:8  When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. 
32:9  For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.  [KJV]

Deuteronomy 32:7  Remember the days of old; consider the years of many generations; ask your father, and he will show you, your elders, and they will tell you. 
32:8  When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. 
32:9  But the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.  [ESV]

This makes much more sense and takes us back to the tower of Babylon rebellion in Genesis 11: - and that the ruler of this world and the nations are the angels who were condemned to Earth for their rebellion. 

Genesis 11:8  So the LORD dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. 
11:9  Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth. And from there the LORD dispersed them over the face of all the earth.  [ESV]

 

What Heiser asserts is more significant than the simple fact of a supposed translational error in the KJV. What he asserts is that God handed the nations over to angelic wickedness in the precept of adonai (gods) and he even uses the expression pantheon to imbibe a council of God that corresponds to a semblance of Pantheism as it is was understood by the ancient Greeks. 

Heiser used the words of Micaiah the prophet to prove this council of God teaching (pantheism) as well as Job and the Apostle Paul. He also uses Psalm 82 also. His whole claim is predicated on a linguistic argument and he makes a complete mess of the theology - if by theology we are in any meaning intending to teach spiritual realities and how they are or can be applied to present ministry. 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Kelly2363

[Justin Adams]

10 hours ago, Kelly2363 said:

Heiser used the words of Micaiah the prophet to prove this council of God teaching (pantheism) as well as Job and the Apostle Paul. He also uses Psalm 82 also. His whole claim is predicated on a linguistic argument and he makes a complete mess of the theology - if by theology we are in any meaning intending to teach spiritual realities and how they are or can be applied to present ministry. 

The idea of the Divine Council has been around for a long time. The second temple literature (disallowed by modernists) has a well developed Deuteronomy 32 worldview and it can be observed in what the apostles taught as well. There is no pantheon except those that were developed by the aberrant Sons of God that were over the nations. You cannot take a few words of Dr Heiser and attempt to formulate a concept of pantheistic notions. It does not work; is not coherent and is poor scholarship.