Why waste the energy?

[Guest trow45]

OK, why is it a lot of fundamentalist Christians waste both their time and mine trying to convince me that IM wrong and THEIR right. Dont we both believe in the same Savior/Creator? How come because I believe my church's institution should be visible, LIKE CHRIST SAID IT SHOULD, and that makes me a follower of the Anti-Christ? Why? Can anyone explain, without throwing a ton of Bible quotes at me? ( I dont mind a few but more than 10 and it gets hard to read) Well if u can Id appreciate it.

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Personally, I believe it's not a debate between you and me or them in who is right and who is wrong.

Kinda like a dog chashin' its tail....

Mankind has always been able to manipulate the scripture to 'say' and make whatever point that individual wants to make....

I believe its in peter where he says ".... and the scripture is of no private interpratation..."

Even if you can't believe in what the other one proclaims, believe in a God who will work it all out in the end......

Believe in the word and the spirit first.......

Believe He is able to .... use the bad for good...

I agree...

Protestant, Catholic, Baptist, Church of Christ, whatever

We are all part of the same family

My perception is that in war, the first step is to divide so you can conqueor.....

Create confusion where ever possible, so that doubt can manifest itself......

Keep the main thing the main thing

The main thing is Jesus Christ

[Gerioke]

Kinda reminds me of this http://www.worthyboards.com/forums/index.p...topic=23041&hl=

[Guest yod]

For a former Roman Catholic you have little knowledge of this prayer or historical Christianity.

The prayer starts out ----Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy!

Our life, our sweetness, and our hope!

She is the Mother of Jesus and Jesus is God therefor Jesus is our Our life, our sweetness, and our hope comprende.

[Assisi]

For a former Roman Catholic you have little knowledge of this prayer or historical Christianity.

The prayer starts out ----Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy!

Our life, our sweetness, and our hope!

She is the Mother of Jesus and Jesus is God therefor Jesus is our Our life, our sweetness, and our hope comprende.

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but he brings up an excellent point. Are you praying to Mary or not? Do you really believe that she even hears you? If so, are her prayers on your behalf better than going yourself to whom the Bible says is our ONE Mediator between God and man....and that is ONLY Yeshua.

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[halifaxchristian]

Are you saying that mary can hear you if you spoke to her right now? I sure hope not. And if you do believe this...give Scriptures.

[Sgtazur]

Another problem is that Saints who have passed on are alive.

JN 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

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Two things with this:

1. Everyone who dies a believer will still live, not just the saints. What then, I can pray to my great-grandmother who died a christian? God forbid! Should I pray to any other mortal who died a christian? Should I split my prayers between God and dead men? Hell no.

2. Yes, the believers will be ressurected, but that comes at Judgement day after Armageddon. Until then, souls are only waiting:

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Rev 20:11-12)

[Assisi]

Are you saying that mary can hear you if you spoke to her right now?  I sure hope not.  And if you do believe this...give Scriptures.

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Scripture or simple intellectual belief is not certitude of faith. Certitude of faith is experientially rooted in the very God who communicates directally to the soul. True filial devotion to Mary is a gift of her Son. Thoes who reject Mary sacrifice the opportunity for healing onto wholeness whereby we are united with God.

One of many examples is the fallowing and i will be impartial by using this article from the International Survivalist Society. Many athiests and agnostics especialy doctors were converted just by this one of many first class miricals at Lourdes.

Suppurating Fracture of the Leg. - Pierre de Rudder, who lived at Jabbeke, near Ostend, had his leg broken by a falling tree. Dr. Affenaer reduced the fracture and placed it in a starch splint, both bones being fractured and protruding through the skin. The flesh turned gangrenous, a large ulcer formed on the dorsal part of the foot, the wound was full of pus, and Dr. Vassanaere and others, called to a consultation, advised immediate amputation; to which the patient would not consent. About the middle of January Dr. Verriest again advised amputation, without effect. In April the patient was taken to the Grotto at Lourdes. There was a gap of over an inch between the ends of the bones and foul pus poured from the wound. Arrived at the Grotto he felt something happening as he rested on the seat. He knelt down and got up unaided, his leg resumed its normal size, the wounds healed up and the bones were solidly united. De Rudder then got up and walked without crutches to the omnibus which took him back to Ghent. The next day Dr. Affenaer came to visit him;

"he found the bones quite smooth at the scat of fracture, which was firmly united without any callus. The man lived for twenty-three years after, and during that time worked continually on his land without the least sign of fatigue or pain."

"As this case excited an enormous amount of interest throughout Belgium, Dr. van Hoestenberghe, after De Rudder's death, got permission to exhume the body, and he removed the bones of the legs, which are now in the possession of the Bishop of Bruges."

These bones were photographed, right and left leg for comparison: the photograph shows deformity at the scat of the fracture, but perfect union of the bones; there is no shortening and only slight displacement from the straight. The medical gentleman who has so kindly brought this case to my special notice remarks:

How can we explain this case? We are confronted with the same difficulty as in the previous one. It is impossible to reject the direct evidence of so many competent medical men who examined the fracture both before and after the cure. Besides, we have the direct evidence of the united bones which were exhumed in the presence of a number of witnesses. We have no alternative but to admit the miraculous, although it goes dead against all our preconceived notions of the inviolability of natural laws to do so. Are we to believe that Nature's laws can be set aside, or are we to reject all human testimony and the evidence of the bones themselves? Or may it be that the miracle is the result of some unknown law of the spiritual world? When Dr. Verriest examined the fracture three months before the cure, he stated that there was a separation of three centimetres (1 1/3 inches) between the two ends. In the centre of the wound two bony fragments could be seen, blackened and necrosed, and bathed in pus. To obtain a natural cure the necrosed ends would first have to be removed, and by that time the separation of the bones would have amounted to three inches or more. How was this cavity filled up? The periosteum had long since been destroyed by the suppuration ... But here is another difficulty: where did the phosphate of lime come from to fill the gap? It could only come from the blood. Now the whole blood in the body only contains about 1.6 grammes of phosphate of lime, and the callus would require at least four times that amount. Where could it come from?(1) And further, what became of the sequestra? They must have disappeared, but where? And where did all the pus go to? It was so profuse that it poured over the cushions of the vehicle that brought him to the Grotto, much to the annoyance of the driver. And, lastly, the muscles during all these years after the fracture took place were atrophied and useless. How did they regain instantly their pristine vigor? No one is able to answer any of these questions, and yet the cure is incontestable.

[halifaxchristian]

Are you saying that mary can hear you if you spoke to her right now?

[HisWordIsSufficient]

If you cant back it up with scripture, then your coming to your own conclusions. That is dangerous. The Word of God is all truth and the ONLY truth, so we are very rightfully asking you to show us where your faith is coming from. Doesnt seem to be the bible which is:

Romans 10:17 'So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.'

true faith actually comes from God's word. So anything else is false. Its probably not your fault. Youve had it drilled in your head to pray to Mary in your church. But read your bible and ask the Lord for the TRUTH of all these things and he will not lie to you.

John 16:3 'But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.'

all you have to do is search for yourself with all your heart without just listening to your leaders alone. Were supposed to go home and get into the word and see if these things are so.

This topic has already shown scripture enough times that mentions that were to pray ONLY to the Father in Heaven through Jesus Christ. Mary is not to be prayed to, or used to pray to the trinity. Show us in the bible where it supports what you believe, and we will stand corrected. If not, we may as wll close this topic because theres no point to it.

I truly hope you will seek and find the truthful answers and ways of the Lord. Bless you

Edited August 29, 2005 by Bluebird1

[Guest stray bullet]

The Catholic Church contradicts itself all the time.  In fact, the Eastern Orthodox Churches are primitive proof of that.

The Catholic Church has never made a single error in doctrine in its 2000 years, no have they ever retracted any doctrine.

I don't see what the Orthodox church has to do with anything.