Why waste the energy?

[Sgtazur]

The Catholic Church contradicts itself all the time.

[Fiosh]

Hi Bluebird,

The difficulty Catholics have answering some doctrinal questions simply is that we take the Bible as a whole. We don't pick and choose verses to support our personal beliefs.

So, if you want to read several pages of explanation, it's there in any Catholic apologetic text, or in the Catechism........complete with plenty of Scripture references.

Here's the gist of the basis for praying to Mary and the saints.

First, let me be perfectly clear, we do not worship Mary...we honor her.

By "pray", I mean "talk to and ask for intercession".

Ok, the problem in our understanding each other begins with our different beliefs in the afterlife.

I believe when a saint dies he is immediately with Christ.

You believe when you die you are dead until......(I'm not clear on that part)

So, of course I wouldn't talk to a "dead" person. I talk to those who are alive with Christ. And, I am sure that those in heaven are alive to God.

For the Bible tells me that He is the God of the living. The saints are, in fact, more alive than we are and in the arms of God.

The Body of Christ encompasses all the "saints" here on earth as well as those in heaven. So we are united with them.

Therefore, just as I might be asked to pray for a WB member, I may ask a saint in heaven to pray for me.

But, you might say, "Jesus is the only mediator between man and God".

Yes, yet many still pray for their friends, in effect, "mediate" for them.

We can only be "secondary" mediators thru the power of Jesus, the Primary mediator.

And, yes, I still can and do pray directly to the Father thru Jesus. In fact, the majority of my prayer is directly to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

That's the best I can do without getting to wordy.

peace,

Fiosh

[HisWordIsSufficient]

Thanks for your reply.

But id rather scripture. I have a catholic bible somewhere, if you want, at least give me scripture from that one, though id prefer reference from the real bible. I have read the bible cover to cover and still read it and i havent found supported scripture, so please, show me.

As far as us interceeding for others.. we do it through Jesus Christ! Do you pray in jesus name to the "saints?" or do you just pray to them, asking them to ask Jesus, to ask the father??? Jesus is our only way and we pray for others, through Jesus. Not pray through others. Mary is worshipped. You pray to her! Were only to pray to the father. Only. So, again i ask for scripture please. Its not picking and choosing sections. That would be silly. By all means, show me a verse, a chapter... a book.. whatever you want, that shows that praying to mary is okay. Or praying to the saints is okay. is infact biblical.

thanks

[Fiosh]

Thanks for your reply.

But id rather scripture. I have a catholic bible somewhere, if you want, at least give me scripture from that one, though id prefer reference from the real bible. I have read the bible cover to cover and still read it and i havent found supported scripture, so please, show me.

As far as us interceeding for others.. we do it through Jesus Christ! Do you pray in jesus name to the "saints?" or do you just pray to them, asking them to ask Jesus, to ask the father??? Jesus is our only way and we pray for others, through Jesus. Not pray through others. Mary is worshipped. You pray to her! Were only to pray to the father. Only. So, again i ask for scripture please. Its not picking and choosing sections. That would be silly. By all means, show me a verse, a chapter... a book.. whatever you want, that shows that praying to mary is okay. Or praying to the saints is okay. is infact biblical.

thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know what I do. I do NOT worship Mary. Please do not pretend you can read my mind or see into my heart.

[artsylady]

But, you might say, "Jesus is the only mediator between man and God".

Yes, yet many still pray for their friends, in effect, "mediate" for them.

We can only be "secondary" mediators thru the power of Jesus, the Primary mediator.

That makes it clearer and actually makes sense.

I personally find that there are a lot of things with the Catholic Church that I disagree with. I believe Constantine started it with evil intent and some of the administration over the years have done some very evil things (like outlawing the Bible and the Inquisitions). I don't believe the Popes are infallable and I don't believe the wine and bread change to Jesus actual blood and body.

However, I do think that there are very good Christians out there who happen to be Catholic. They see things one way, I see things another way. I think debating the differences are okay, if it's done in a spirit of love.

[Guest yod]

The modern messianic movement began with a Bulgarian rabbi who visited Israel in the late 1800s. He had absolutely ZERO ties to Catholics or Protestants when he began the first messianic jewish synagoge since the 13th Century.

Which books of the bible did he use then? Where did he get those books from the bible?

He read the Bible.

It is an almost exclusively jewish book. If one tries to read it outside of that context they will never fully understand what it is saying.

The Catholic Church has not split from any church.

``Where the Bishop is, there let the multitude of believers be;

even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church'' Ignatius of Antioch, 1st c. A.D

Sorry man...I don't accept any of the "church fathers" as credible. You can not proclaim anything from extra-biblical sources until you can prove something...anything....using the Bible

The so-called church fathers were gnostics. They were trying to establish a new religion by reading latin translations of greek texts translated from the hebrew & aramaic languages.

They were the very people who led the revolt against the ORIGINAL church with their bigotry against jews...which caused the first denominational split...which eventually became the Catholic church.

The Catholic Church began as a rebellions anti-semetic institution. They cut christians off from the foundation of our faith. After all, salvation is of the jews...not of Rome

Face it. This is veritas

[SpiritLedEd]

The Catholic Church contradicts itself all the time.

[artsylady]

I don't see it as 'love the sinner not the sin'. I see it more as 'love your brother, not his doctrine.'

[Guest stray bullet]

The Catholic Church contradicts itself all the time.  In fact, the Eastern Orthodox Churches are primitive proof of that.

The Catholic Church has never made a single error in doctrine in its 2000 years, no have they ever retracted any doctrine.

I don't see what the Orthodox church has to do with anything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Haha...what a joke. Ignorance is bliss. For starters...evolution.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Evolution is not a doctrine, nor was Creationism. Before making statements such as you made, perhaps you should understand what doctrine actually means.

[Guest stray bullet]

and just FYI

The modern messianic movement began with a Bulgarian rabbi who visited Israel in the late 1800s. He had absolutely ZERO ties to Catholics or Protestants when he began the first messianic jewish synagoge since the 13th Century.

Which books of the bible did he use then? Where did he get those books from the bible?

I am part of that restoration and we are neither Catholic nor Protestant. Never have been...since the Catholic Church split from the ORIGINAL church.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Catholic Church has not split from any church.

``Where the Bishop is, there let the multitude of believers be;

even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church'' Ignatius of Antioch, 1st c. A.D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good to see that the Catholic Church has sent a new Jesuit to participate on this board. Good job guys! Keep up the good work...Satan would be proud.

Don't think I'm ignorant of your devices...stray bullet. I know who you are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rather than insulting me, perhaps you could do the Christian thing and actually tell me where I am wrong?