Why waste the energy?

[HisWordIsSufficient]

Thanks for your reply.

But id rather scripture. I have a catholic bible somewhere, if you want, at least give me scripture from that one, though id prefer reference from the real bible. I have read the bible cover to cover and still read it and i havent found supported scripture, so please, show me.

As far as us interceeding for others.. we do it through Jesus Christ! Do you pray in jesus name to the "saints?" or do you just pray to them, asking them to ask Jesus, to ask the father??? Jesus is our only way and we pray for others, through Jesus. Not pray through others. Mary is worshipped. You pray to her! Were only to pray to the father. Only. So, again i ask for scripture please. Its not picking and choosing sections. That would be silly. By all means, show me a verse, a chapter... a book.. whatever you want, that shows that praying to mary is okay. Or praying to the saints is okay. is infact biblical.

thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know what I do. I do NOT worship Mary. Please do not pretend you can read my mind or see into my heart.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry to upset you. I dont pretend to know what you do and dont do, but if your a Catholic, thats what they do. And dont tell me they dont. I was lugged around to Catholic churches from a young age and i know the drill, which consists of praying to Mary with much praise. So if you dont, good on you for not following this wrong tradition.

So... still waiting for scripture... if you dont have any just say so and i will rest my case and stick with my views of praying to or through Mary as wrong and unbiblical. Please dont dodge the request. Thanks

[halifaxchristian]

Thanks for your reply.

But id rather scripture. I have a catholic bible somewhere, if you want, at least give me scripture from that one, though id prefer reference from the real bible. I have read the bible cover to cover and still read it and i havent found supported scripture, so please, show me.

As far as us interceeding for others.. we do it through Jesus Christ! Do you pray in jesus name to the "saints?" or do you just pray to them, asking them to ask Jesus, to ask the father??? Jesus is our only way and we pray for others, through Jesus. Not pray through others. Mary is worshipped. You pray to her! Were only to pray to the father. Only. So, again i ask for scripture please. Its not picking and choosing sections. That would be silly. By all means, show me a verse, a chapter... a book.. whatever you want, that shows that praying to mary is okay. Or praying to the saints is okay. is infact biblical.

thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know what I do. I do NOT worship Mary. Please do not pretend you can read my mind or see into my heart.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry to upset you. I dont pretend to know what you do and dont do, but if your a Catholic, thats what they do. And dont tell me they dont. I was lugged around to Catholic churches from a young age and i know the drill, which consists of praying to Mary with much praise. So if you dont, good on you for not following this wrong tradition.

So... still waiting for scripture... if you dont have any just say so and i will rest my case and stick with my views of praying to or through Mary as wrong and unbiblical. Please dont dodge the request. Thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bluebird...good post...like I have said before...Catholics worship Mary...if Fiosh doesn't worship mary...that makes her a Christian...deceived into fellowshipping in a Catholic Church. We are not trying to tell fiosh where her heart is...we are trying to tell fiosh where catholic hearts are...according to Church teaching.

[Sgtazur]

The Catholic Church contradicts itself all the time.

[fenwar]

The so-called church fathers were gnostics. They were trying to establish a new religion by reading latin translations of greek texts translated from the hebrew & aramaic languages.

They were the very people who led the revolt against the ORIGINAL church with their bigotry against jews...which caused the first denominational split...which eventually became the Catholic church.

The Catholic Church began as a rebellions anti-semetic institution. They cut christians off from the foundation of our faith. After all, salvation is of the jews...not of Rome

Face it. This is veritas

Um, who told you all this? It simply isn't true.

Many of the church fathers spent a great deal of time and effort arguing against gnosticism. Many could trace their discipleship back to one of the original twelve (e.g. John -> Polycarp -> Irenaeus).

I agree that some of them were mistaken in their attitude towards Jews. Then again, some of this might be attributable to Jewish persecution of the early church. Fortunately this is no longer the case and steps are being taken to right the church's historical wrongs against Jews.

[Guest stray bullet]

The Catholic Church contradicts itself all the time.  In fact, the Eastern Orthodox Churches are primitive proof of that.

The Catholic Church has never made a single error in doctrine in its 2000 years, no have they ever retracted any doctrine.

I don't see what the Orthodox church has to do with anything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"The sun revolves around the earth"

"The heavens are stable (comets don't exist)"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you have evidence otherwise, post away.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mate I just did. The catholics believed both 1) The earth was the center of the universe, and the sun revolved around the earth (they gave a formal apology to Galileo in 1992 - about 400 years after he was imprisoned by the same church), and 2) The heavens are stable. Some catholic clergy encouraged people to look away if they ever saw a shooting star or a comet because of this doctrine.

You said the Catholic Church hasn't taken back ANY doctrine, but there are two.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Those aren't doctrine, they never were. They were never put under the banner of Ex-Cathedra, nor declared by an Ecumenical Council. Not everything believed within the Church is doctrine, because some things are purely maters of science.

Doctrine cover theological issues, not scientific ones. Meaning, the Church has never been misleading in terms of doctrine morals. The Church can be wrong in what its clergy teach about science, like how many elements there are, planets or how gravity works.

[Guest stray bullet]

Thanks for your reply.

But id rather scripture. I have a catholic bible somewhere, if you want, at least give me scripture from that one, though id prefer reference from the real bible. I have read the bible cover to cover and still read it and i havent found supported scripture, so please, show me.

As far as us interceeding for others.. we do it through Jesus Christ! Do you pray in jesus name to the "saints?" or do you just pray to them, asking them to ask Jesus, to ask the father??? Jesus is our only way and we pray for others, through Jesus. Not pray through others. Mary is worshipped. You pray to her! Were only to pray to the father. Only. So, again i ask for scripture please. Its not picking and choosing sections. That would be silly. By all means, show me a verse, a chapter... a book.. whatever you want, that shows that praying to mary is okay. Or praying to the saints is okay. is infact biblical.

thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know what I do. I do NOT worship Mary. Please do not pretend you can read my mind or see into my heart.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry to upset you. I dont pretend to know what you do and dont do, but if your a Catholic, thats what they do. And dont tell me they dont. I was lugged around to Catholic churches from a young age and i know the drill, which consists of praying to Mary with much praise. So if you dont, good on you for not following this wrong tradition.

So... still waiting for scripture... if you dont have any just say so and i will rest my case and stick with my views of praying to or through Mary as wrong and unbiblical. Please dont dodge the request. Thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bluebird...good post...like I have said before...Catholics worship Mary...if Fiosh doesn't worship mary...that makes her a Christian...deceived into fellowshipping in a Catholic Church. We are not trying to tell fiosh where her heart is...we are trying to tell fiosh where catholic hearts are...according to Church teaching.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Catholics do not worship Mary. You will not find within the teachings of the Church commands to worship Mary like she was some kind of goddess.

Unless you can prove that Catholics worship Mary, which you can't, you really need to stop with these accusations.

[Guest stray bullet]

Stray bullet...you are bullet on a mission alright...but you definitely are not stray...you knew exactly what you were getting into the minute you signed up.  Am I wrong??? Reveal my stupidity if that is what it is...but own up if that is what you are.  Do the right thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mission to do what?

[Sgtazur]

>>>>2)The ability of priests to forgive sin. No one can forgive sin except for God

>>>This is also supported by the bible- Christ gave his apostles the ability to forgive sins.

>>Really? Where?

> "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained." - John 20:23

>>>more, priests don't forgive sins by their own merits, but only by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. When one confesses to a priest, they are confessing to Christ.

>> To put men on the same level of Christ? God forbid!

>That's like saying preachers put themselves on the same level as God for teaching the Gospel. All a preacher or minister is doing is saying the same things Jesus said when reading from the Gospel, although that doesn't mean he's as good as Jesus. In the same way that men now spread the good news as Jesus did, so also does Jesus grant men the power to hear confession and through Christ's forgiveness, absolve them of their sins.

I agree that people are able to preach the gospel, because Jesus's command "Go out into the world and preach to all nations"

But forgiving sins? Who has made the sacrifice on the cross so that sins can be forgiven? Paul even says not to do that, and that he could not forgive sins because he had not made the sacrifice that Christ has made in order to do it.

Remember that sin causes one to die:

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin death...

and no man on earth can cause us to live again. Only Christ

but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

also:

I corinthians 1:13

was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

>>>If all you needed to do was ask God for forgiveness, then Jesus would have told us this. Not only do we not see this in the bible, but we see people coming to Jesus and confessing them for the forgiveness of their sins

>>Christ was not a man, He is God. The men who "forgive" sins are just men, and there is no biblical basis that says they can forgive sins.

>Sure there is. If Jesus didn't want people to confess in person, then He might be misleading by hearing confessions in person, rather than privately. Remember that people confessed to him and in front of the apostles at the same time. The bible also speaks of confessing your sins to one another.

That whole last reply, you talked about confessing sins instead of forgiving them. This is why I'm adding the above two replies. I never said anything bout confessing sins but having them forgiven is another matter

>>>>4)The Inquistition....It most certainly did result in the deaths of thousands

>>>The Inquisition was actually a positive thing. The only parts were know about usually are the gross abuses of it by local governments

>>"And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good, but God alone. You know the commandments; Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother."

not to mention the whole 6th commandment thou shalt not kill.

> The Inquistion was not about killing, it was about addressing people that mislead others on things of faith. The Church didn't kill people, however, it is true local governments grossly abused the Inquistion to get rid of people they didn't like.

The church didn't kill people!??!!?!??! They killed people in the inquisition alright. And only Local governments? Not so, for those good catholic kings/emperors decided to kill as well, all over their countries. The pope had his own share as well:

-

[artsylady]

1) The Catholic Church was not created by Constantine. The Catholic Church was created by Jesus with Peter the apostle as the head. Peter went to Rome and established an Apostolic See. Just as Jesus predicted, Peter was martyred. The successors of Peter stayed in Rome and lived under deep persecution until the 4th Century when Constantine lifted the ban on Christianity and we were allowed to practice our faith openly.

The Bible never mentions the word "Catholic" anywhere. The 'church' was started by the early believers. Constantine wanted control and wanted to harness some of the Christians energy so he created 'Catholicism". Where does it say that Peter established the "Apostolic See"?

2) The Pope is not infallible, he is only capable of having the Holy Spirit speak through him under certain conditions, which is called ex-cathedra. This is the same means by which we got our bible- God speaking through the prophets and apostles.

I'll accept that I suppose.

3) John 6 makes it perfectly clear that "this is my body" means "this is my body". Jesus' followers actually walked away from Him because it was too much to handle for Him. The Gospels show that He didn't correct them, nor say He was only speaking symbolically.

Not only that, but the bible says people became sick from receiving the Eucharist unworthily.

When does the chemical reaction from wine and bread go to flesh and blood? In the mouth? In the Intestines? When and where does it happen?

Jesus spoke symbolically much of the time. He told Peter he was the "rock" that he'd build the church on. Peter didn't turn into a rock on that day. He is called us "sheep". That doesn't mean we turn into sheep. I can think of many more examples. Do you agree that Jesus did use a lot of symbolism?

4) The Catholic Church never outlawed the bible.

Yes they did.

5) The problems we associate with the Inquisitions are related to local governments at the time, not the Catholic Church.

I would disagree on that.

[Guest stray bullet]

Aug 30 2005, 04:25 AM]

Stray bullet...may I be totally honest with you??? Permit me so...

I believe that you are a Jesuit...and for good reason. If this is an "insult" to you...then maybe you should give up that order. Just a thought.