An Importance of Faithfulness to a Local Church

[Marathoner]

21 hours ago, Kelly2363 said:

 

I have highlighted this section dear brother, but in truth I am moved by the entirety of what you have shared. 

I have of course read your testimony as you know because I asked you to tell me where to find it. And I did respond afterwards speaking of prophetic sheets. I took your testimony which was posted across four separate posts and made a pdf file which is now on my desktop. What I wanted to discern then is still in my thinking now and when the Lord moves me I will share what I have learned or better understood from it. So we do indeed have a common calling and a common experience inasmuch as your faith and my own abides in coming to Christ without the intervention of men. 

The community you speak of here was also in that testimony and I was immediately reminded of a community in Northern Minnesota - Ben Israel - so perhaps when you speak of oranges and apples it does seem as though we are speaking about two separate things. But I would invite you to receive a prophetic fold that has it that many such communities have gone the same way - even when there has been no improper use of authority. As difficult as it must seem to any one of us - if we have once known the Lords' presence as the head of His body - the Church - so that same reality can be known in any place - including in places where the abuse is the gravest. The separating garment is our own flesh - and not the abuses of men. 

I believe that was the precise distinction you made brother in your previous post in this OP and in this one in a more stark meaning to speak of the community and the tomb that leads to the grave. The Church and the churches. Whether the godly community or like the whitewashed tomb - both are living until Christ removes His presence and life from within the midst. Then both are dead. All who have put their trust into Christ are living stones and what we will become in truth we can hardly yet fathom even when we have known its living meaning so as to be utterly persuaded that in Christ we are alive even when we are in churches that are often grievously close to being caste away. We must persevere, however, and we must serve one another - And we may have no choice but to do it in a church that is almost dead. That is a matter of liberty or else obedience. 

My apologies, brother, as I was composing a post when the one above was posted to the topic. I'm blessed to read it and astonished by your report and experience, for we do share much in common in this world.  

It was challenging to share the testimony (I refer to my topic in the Testimonies forum), knowing that it was needful to write in generalities, committing much detail and certain events to silence in service of time and space. Therefore it was a relief to share my experience with the saints for their assembly was where the Spirit of the Lord sent me after I divested myself of most of my possessions, things that would prove to be a burden on the road. 

This was by no means a linear journey, traveling from point A to point B; there were pauses and visits with others (churches) along the way. Ah, but that's a matter for a different time to be sure. 

I was young, immature in this faith which Christ bestowed upon me, and naive regarding the ways of the world and this flesh we struggle against. When I write wide-eyed and clueless, I mean that in every sense of the word. I trust you understand that I was never "innocent" at any time; when I offer testimony either in writing or verbally, I move within the crucible of experience: what I thought and how I felt during the events in question. 

There were a great many things I might have handled according to a better way but the Lord is a patient Teacher, firm yet gentle toward one whom He snatched from this world. He encourages me not to dwell upon the past but rather, learn from those lessons He delivered during my youth. I lacked parental love and guidance as a child so the Lord Himself instructed me in the way I ought to go. There is no better Father nor Teacher than the lover of our souls.  

You have articulated something I've never taken to task, which is this: whether a community of holy ones sharing things in common or those who sit in the pews, the blessing of the Lord and the breath of His Spirit are what set the gathering apart. I have visited churches from time to time and God willing, I will share my experience with two; the Lord sent me to both and I witnessed His blessing and the breath of His Spirit at work in their midst. Their hearts before God were a wonderful blessing to behold. 

One's heart before God is what matters the most of all, not necessarily "correctness" nor adhering to form and function. As we both know from experience, committing ourselves to living according to the testimony of the book of Acts doesn't always work out according to our expectations. 

Let me amend what I wrote previously, then. No matter the nature nor location of a gathering, if the blessing of Christ and the breath of His Spirit are absent then it will prove to be a tomb leading to the grave. I'm thankful for your contributions because you encourage me to season that "crucible of experience" with those lessons delivered during my youth, brother. 

This is why it pleases the Lord that we need one another. If we love Him, we also love the brethren.    

Edited September 1, 2021 by Marathoner

[Marathoner]

I should also apologize for my tendency to miss certain things when emotions are involved. These are effectively holes in cognition, a legacy and "thorn in the flesh" I bear from what I endured over the years. A lengthy post would be required to explain the brain injuries I suffered in detail, something which isn't needful by any means. Don't we all bear weaknesses in this world? Each one of us do and I'm certainly not the only one who experiences intermittent cognitive deficits. 

Hopefully the reader will appreciate my hesitation with regard to passionate responses, a caution which the Lord is faithful to remind me of. The simple fact that I endure, and am able to pull off of a reasonably rational and coherent response, is a miracle. It has been many years and the Lord continues to renew my mind, but there are certain things which He is pleased to leave intact. We remember the words of the apostle Paul, and I also remember the example of Jacob (who became Israel) in the 32nd chapter of Genesis. The Lord blessed Jacob but afflicted him in such a way that he walked with a limp for the rest of his days. 

@Kelly2363, I look back both on what you wrote and my response and I exclaim, "Doh! I missed that!" Ah well. There's no point in extensive editing apart from addressing typos. I pray you'll understand. I'm in agreement with you and that's what matters.   

[Kelly2363]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

Whether a community of holy ones sharing things in common or those who sit in the pews, the blessing of the Lord and the breath of His Spirit are what set the gathering apart.

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

No matter the nature nor location of a gathering, if the blessing of Christ and the breath of His Spirit are absent then it will prove to be a tomb leading to the grave.

Amen Brother.

[Kelly2363]

2 hours ago, Marathoner said:

Therefore it was a relief to share my experience with the saints for their assembly was where the Spirit of the Lord sent me after I divested myself of most of my possessions, things that would prove to be a burden on the road. 

 

Art and his wife, a daughter and her nephew Eli are all buried on the farm near the prayer tree that Art used to often pray. One daughter remains and the farm is now empty. Although the daughter that remains has recently asked for prayers so that she and one other may know what lies ahead. As you know the work is essentially finished. The daughter did ask for carpenters and builders to help rebuild the work - especially the Lodge. So it seems as though she is trying to revive the work that Art founded. Shalom

Edited September 1, 2021 by Kelly2363

[not an echo]

18 hours ago, Diaste said:

23 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

I would like to again reinforce everything I said in my opening post to this thread and add that I never said anything about religion.  I am talking about children of God and Christianity and coming together with others in the family of God to do together what each of us should be doing on an individual basis, the goal being something that Paul wrote to the Ephesians concerning.  There are several things I would like to emphasize, but with this post, I will just give the Scripture and allow Christ to emphasize for you what He would like to through His Spirit.  Consider from Ephesians chapter 4:

Christianity is a religion. So you are speaking about religion. From what I read in scripture religion is not the banner under which we march. 

Hello Diaste,

I would like to again reinforce everything I said in my opening post to this thread.  It was something that I did prayerfully, and my prayer remains that it will be helpful to someone, even you.

When I considered what to entitle this thread, I concerned myself over the use of terms that would be palatable, as I knew that the subject of even attending a local church leaves such a bad taste in the mouths of so many.  How much more when the subject concerns faithfulness to a local church.  There have been times when I have been left with a bitter taste as well.  I guess a help for me was understanding that it is understandable to have negative thoughts concerning what is wrong, as long as this is balanced by positive thoughts concerning what is right.  I used to give the nod to the things of the world, even when the bad outweighed the good.  So, when I determined to give God (and the things of God) the same chance I had given the world, I was okay with enduring some things.  Interestingly, with the things of the world, I had endured all that I could in a few years of time.  Now, as I look back, I have no regrets for whatever I may have had to endure for Christ's sake.  God has turned everything around for my good and I give Him the glory.  I am much the better for having been faithful to a local church.

Concerning the word religion, it is a word so seldom used by me that I can almost say it is not a part of my vocabulary.  It is like a dirty word for so many, as your use of it attests.  Of course, I believe we should all be fine with "pure religion" (James 1:27), and even you spoke of this in a positive way, saying "There is one religion that's a true religion."  And then you referenced what James says concerning "pure religion" (James 1:27).  Whatever it is that you might think that I would encourage you to be faithful to, I would encourage you to be faithful to the purest element of that that you can find.  Same with Christianity.  Yes, I also know that the concept many have of Christianity is wanting.  Concerning this, I have an illustration that I have used for many years to make an important point, but I have only ever used it in person---I have never written it out.  I'm minded to give it a try, however, as close as I can to how I would share it in a church service.  Here goes:

First of all, "What is true Christianity?"  For so many, it is about going to church regularly, bookending their days with a little word of prayer, reading in their Bibles some, and endeavoring to live a good moral life (compared to others, anyway).  On a scale of one to ten, what would one rate who is faithful to coming to church every Sunday morning and does the things I just mentioned?  Let me say that, if this is the extent of one's comprehension of what Christianity is all about, I would put this one at a one.  (Now, imagine me showing both my hands, with one pinky raised.)

(Continuing...)  What about that one who is regular to two services a week, like Sunday morning and Wednesday night, along with those same things I mentioned earlier??  Well, if this is the extent of one's comprehension of what Christianity is all about, I would put this one at a two.  (Now, imagine me showing two fingers raised.)

So, what about that one who is faithful to every weekly service and even five nights of a spring and/or fall revival, along with those same things I mentioned earlier???  Well again, if this is the extent of one's comprehension of what Christianity is all about, I would put him or her at a three.  (Now, imagine I have three fingers lifted.)  "WHAT?" someone may ask.  Am I saying that I would put someone who goes to church EVERY time the doors are opened and does those things that I mentioned earlier, AT JUST A THREE on a scale of one to ten?  Yeah, if that is the extent of their comprehension of what Christianity is all about.  I say this because some that go to church every time the doors are opened cause more harm to the cause of Christianity than they do good.  Sadly, some that you can bet on being at every church service are also the biggest mess in the church.  And, some that you may think are faithful behind the scenes are really pretty loose.

What in the world then do I think it takes to rate a ten on a scale of one to ten?  Stay with me now.  True Christianity is about walking with Christ on Monday (I raise a 4th finger), walking with Christ on Tuesday (I raise a 5th finger), walking with Christ on Wednesday, before the Wednesday night service (I raise a 6th finger), walking with Christ on Thursday (I raise a 7th finger), walking with Christ on Friday (I raise an 8th finger), walking with Christ on Saturday (I raise a 9th finger), and finally, walking with Christ after the benediction prayer on Sunday morning, in that interval of time between the morning and the night service (if there is a night service).  (Of course, at this time I will have all my fingers raised, and will use this opportunity to teach the importance of walking with Christ, or being a disciple.)  That's how my little illustration goes.  But, I think it effectively makes an important point.

After 38 years of endeavoring to keep in step with Christ, I can't even imagine my walk with Him not involving US being faithful to the local church where He has led me to be a part.  But, this is just a small part of my walk with Him.  The big part is my walk with Him on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday (before the night service), Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday (after the benediction prayer).  I have often told the congregation that if all they get spiritually is what they get when they come to church, then they are spiritually impoverished.  We have a banner at the exit of our little country church that reads, "The walk of Discipleship begins just outside these doors."

Finally, concerning the passage I typed out in my previous post from Ephesians 4 (verses 11-16), I would encourage you to talk to Christ about what you said in reply to me.  Those weren't my words Diaste.  That's what Christ by His Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write.

[Kelly2363]

23 minutes ago, not an echo said:

What in the world then do I think it takes to rate a ten on a scale of one to ten?  Stay with me now.  True Christianity is about walking with Christ on Monday (I raise a 4th finger), walking with Christ on Tuesday (I raise a 5th finger), walking with Christ on Wednesday, before the Wednesday night service (I raise a 6th finger), walking with Christ on Thursday (I raise a 7th finger), walking with Christ on Friday (I raise an 8th finger), walking with Christ on Saturday (I raise a 9th finger), and finally, walking with Christ after the benediction prayer on Sunday morning, in that interval of time between the morning and the night service (if there is a night service).  (Of course, at this time I will have all my fingers raised, and will use this opportunity to teach the importance of walking with Christ, or being a disciple.)  That's how my little illustration goes.  But, I think it effectively makes an important point.

 

I know you were not trying to be humorous here but I was reminded of a sister who was also a school teacher taking dozens of balls of coloured wool and passing them from one believer in the group to the next believer using their fingers as pegs. After tying the whole group up in multicoloured knots of wool with all ten fingers extended across the group and complete chaos - she triumphantly declared - in Christ we are all connected. Then a booming voice came across the hall saying, "you lot have been in a mess for the whole time I have known you - so yes we are all connected in Christ."

We are just a lovely mess. Amen. 

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, Kelly2363 said:

 

I don't believe that our service to one another as defined by our faith into Christ can be measured in exacting terms - yet even the practical gifts in the churches must necessarily be moderated in some ways. Some brethren could NOT do with being helped in ways that others WOULD welcome with open arms. I suppose that sometimes practical service can even cause offence. 

When it comes to spiritual gifts then the exact nature of the gift may not be possible to define precisely - even more so than practical gifts. How many ways are there to clean the toilets or serve at the table? But speech can be almost anything. And so my belief is that it is both our own heart and the governance of the church that makes service possible. If either one is out of balance then the outcome will be a likely chaos or else a somewhat stern church. 

So it cannot be. Then whatever supports the message of the Lord is the working of the Spirit of Truth. Time and place and distance are not factors in the work of God's servants neither is there a list of what is and isn't approved, nor how it's done and by whom.

If the Lord is glorified it is well.

[Kelly2363]

12 minutes ago, Diaste said:

So it cannot be. Then whatever supports the message of the Lord is the working of the Spirit of Truth. Time and place and distance are not factors in the work of God's servants neither is there a list of what is and isn't approved, nor how it's done and by whom.

If the Lord is glorified it is well.

 

That you were looking for a way of escape was already visible - but you cannot feed a hungry man with a catapult. You need to stand at his table with a willing heart to serve him. And if you intend to measure him a portion of poison because you are bitter you need a prophet to remind you to cut of your right hand and the pastor to gently guide your left back to seeing with your eye - the man who is hungry and sits at the Lords' table. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Kelly2363

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

I would like to again reinforce everything I said in my opening post to this thread.  It was something that I did prayerfully, and my prayer remains that it will be helpful to someone, even you.

This is the reason I no longer wish to associate with the Christian Religion. 

"...even you."  Wow.

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

When I considered what to entitle this thread, I concerned myself over the use of terms that would be palatable, as I knew that the subject of even attending a local church leaves such a bad taste in the mouths of so many.  How much more when the subject concerns faithfulness to a local church.  There have been times when I have been left with a bitter taste as well.  I guess a help for me was understanding that it is understandable to have negative thoughts concerning what is wrong, as long as this is balanced by positive thoughts concerning what is right.  I used to give the nod to the things of the world, even when the bad outweighed the good.  So, when I determined to give God (and the things of God) the same chance I had given the world, I was okay with enduring some things.  Interestingly, with the things of the world, I had endured all that I could in a few years of time.  Now, as I look back, I have no regrets for whatever I may have had to endure for Christ's sake.  God has turned everything around for my good and I give Him the glory.  I am much the better for having been faithful to a local church.

Concerning the word religion, it is a word so seldom used by me that I can almost say it is not a part of my vocabulary.  It is like a dirty word for so many, as your use of it attests.  Of course, I believe we should all be fine with "pure religion" (James 1:27), and even you spoke of this in a positive way, saying "There is one religion that's a true religion."  And then you referenced what James says concerning "pure religion" (James 1:27).  Whatever it is that you might think that I would encourage you to be faithful to, I would encourage you to be faithful to the purest element of that that you can find.  Same with Christianity.  Yes, I also know that the concept many have of Christianity is wanting.  Concerning this, I have an illustration that I have used for many years to make an important point, but I have only ever used it in person---I have never written it out.  I'm minded to give it a try, however, as close as I can to how I would share it in a church service.  Here goes:

First of all, "What is true Christianity?"  For so many, it is about going to church regularly, bookending their days with a little word of prayer, reading in their Bibles some, and endeavoring to live a good moral life (compared to others, anyway).  On a scale of one to ten, what would one rate who is faithful to coming to church every Sunday morning and does the things I just mentioned?  Let me say that, if this is the extent of one's comprehension of what Christianity is all about, I would put this one at a one.  (Now, imagine me showing both my hands, with one pinky raised.)

(Continuing...)  What about that one who is regular to two services a week, like Sunday morning and Wednesday night, along with those same things I mentioned earlier??  Well, if this is the extent of one's comprehension of what Christianity is all about, I would put this one at a two.  (Now, imagine me showing two fingers raised.)

So, what about that one who is faithful to every weekly service and even five nights of a spring and/or fall revival, along with those same things I mentioned earlier???  Well again, if this is the extent of one's comprehension of what Christianity is all about, I would put him or her at a three.  (Now, imagine I have three fingers lifted.)  "WHAT?" someone may ask.  Am I saying that I would put someone who goes to church EVERY time the doors are opened and does those things that I mentioned earlier, AT JUST A THREE on a scale of one to ten?  Yeah, if that is the extent of their comprehension of what Christianity is all about.  I say this because some that go to church every time the doors are opened cause more harm to the cause of Christianity than they do good.  Sadly, some that you can bet on being at every church service are also the biggest mess in the church.  And, some that you may think are faithful behind the scenes are really pretty loose.

What in the world then do I think it takes to rate a ten on a scale of one to ten?  Stay with me now.  True Christianity is about walking with Christ on Monday (I raise a 4th finger), walking with Christ on Tuesday (I raise a 5th finger), walking with Christ on Wednesday, before the Wednesday night service (I raise a 6th finger), walking with Christ on Thursday (I raise a 7th finger), walking with Christ on Friday (I raise an 8th finger), walking with Christ on Saturday (I raise a 9th finger), and finally, walking with Christ after the benediction prayer on Sunday morning, in that interval of time between the morning and the night service (if there is a night service).  (Of course, at this time I will have all my fingers raised, and will use this opportunity to teach the importance of walking with Christ, or being a disciple.)  That's how my little illustration goes.  But, I think it effectively makes an important point.

I get the point. I walk with Christ under the tutelage of the Spirit, not the auspices of an organization. Leaving behind the compromise of many voices my heart and mind found silence and in that silence I could finally hear. 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

After 38 years of endeavoring to keep in step with Christ, I can't even imagine my walk with Him not involving US being faithful to the local church where He has led me to be a part.  But, this is just a small part of my walk with Him.  The big part is my walk with Him on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday (before the night service), Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday (after the benediction prayer).  I have often told the congregation that if all they get spiritually is what they get when they come to church, then they are spiritually impoverished.  We have a banner at the exit of our little country church that reads, "The walk of Discipleship begins just outside these doors."

Finally, concerning the passage I typed out in my previous post from Ephesians 4 (verses 11-16), I would encourage you to talk to Christ about what you said in reply to me.  Those weren't my words Diaste.  That's what Christ by His Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write.

 

[Diaste]

3 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Finally, concerning the passage I typed out in my previous post from Ephesians 4 (verses 11-16), I would encourage you to talk to Christ about what you said in reply to me.  Those weren't my words Diaste.  That's what Christ by His Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write.

If you notice I was agreeing with what Paul said. I was pointing out the words of Paul do not take hold in religion. The organization of religion effectively bans the natural conclusion of Paul in Ephesians 4; that all parts should work together.

I'm just an "...even you."