God did not teach us these things

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

I understand @Justin Adams, for the elohim in question are those referenced in the book of Genesis who left their first estate. As the scriptures testify there were angels who sinned but unlike man, who was created a little lower than the angels, no mercy was forthcoming for them. 

This is entirely scriptural. I will not repeat passages from Peter's letter nor Jude's letter affirming what befell those angels who left their their first estate, for these have already been shared by others. The book of Genesis describes how these angels sinned: they took human wives for themselves and their progeny were giants, mighty men of old. The truth is evident:

Our Father showed mercy toward man who was utterly corrupt in the person of His Son Jesus Christ, redeeming us from the penalty, but imprisoned the fallen Watchers who sinned until the day of His wrath. The sons of God do not take wives nor are they given in marriage (the words of Lord Himself affirm this in the New Testament); they committed an abomination in the sight of God which was unforgivable. 

Clearly these Watchers were wicked and evil to have done these things to man, so we can only imagine how these elohim lorded over men and women, calling themselves gods. This is the proper context of Justin's words and 1 Enoch details both their crimes and atrocities, and the horror wrought upon this earth and against man by their abominable progeny. 

The Word of God indeed had come to the Watchers in times past and so He had said, "You are elohim;" but because of their wickedness and support of the wicked who preyed upon the needy, they will die like men and fall like the princes. The identity of the latter are a matter for a different time and topic, I suppose.  

It's obvious that Jesus, Jude and Peter read Enoch and quoted from it.  According to the Dead Sea Scrolls, fallen angels procreated the first Nephilim leading the way to genetic tampering.  We know a couple of additional things from Genesis 6:1-4.

• (Genesis 6:4)  The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.  [ESV]

• So at least some of the Nephilim survived Noah's Flood, or maybe it was just their children.

• These angels were in a position of authority.

• So are these the angels imprisoned for forsaking their position of authority, leaving their dwelling?

Quote

(Jude 1:6)  And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—  [ESV]

So certain angels were imprisoned but the fallen angel called Satan was not and was allowed to freely move about per Job and Jesus.  That is, until Jesus performed the first of many exorcisms, casting out demons.  Jesus the Messiah was now in authority.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Saved.One.by.Grace

[Willa]

There may be some truth in the first chapter of Enoch but it is considered a heretical book because if if any part of it is false the whole message was to be cast out and the false prophet was to be cast out of the country.   That is the reason the apocryphal books  were rejected and discarded from cannon.  The reformers said it may be edifying to read the apocrypha but it may not be taught as holy truth.  That is why it was kept beside the Scriptures.  

Our statement of faith states that we embrace only the 66 books of the Bible which are complete.  To teach from other books as though they are equal to Scripture is heresy. 

"We believe that the 66 books of the Canon, from Genesis to Revelation are the exhaustive, inerrant and inspired word of God"

 

https://www.blueletterbible.org/assets/images/copyChkboxOff.gif Eze 13:8. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “Because you have uttered falsehood and seen lying visions, therefore behold, I am against you, declares the Lord GOD.https://www.blueletterbible.org/assets/images/copyChkboxOff.gif                                                        Eze 13:9  My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and who give lying divinations. They shall not be in the council of my people, nor be enrolled in the register of the house of Israel, nor shall they enter the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

[Waggles]

Mark 5:2  And when he was come out of the boat, straightway there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
6  And seeing Jesus from afar, he ran and worshipped him; 
7  and crying out with a loud voice, saith, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, torment me not. 
8  For he said to him, Come forth, unclean spirit, out of the man. 
9  And he asked him, What is thy name? And he saith to him, My name is Legion; for we are many.

verse 7 - why did the demons refer to Jesus as the Son of the Most High God and not just as the Son of God?? 

Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

If other spirit and angelic beings are referred to as sons of God then it makes doctrinal sense that Jesus on Earth is not just any son of God, but the son of the most high God.

And given that all throughout the gospels and Acts there are numerous descriptions of casting out demons and unclean spirits then it is obvious that Earth is populated by a lot more "elohim" beings than just Jesus and a few angels referred to in scripture. 

Acts 19:13  But certain also of the strolling Jews, exorcists, undertook to name over those having the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. 
14  And seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, a chief priest, were doing this. 
15  And the evil spirit answered and said to them, Jesus I acknowledge, and Paul I know; but who are YE? 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Waggles

[Waggles]

Luke 1:26  Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, Nazareth by name, 
27  unto a virgin betrothed to a man Joseph by name of David’s house; and the name of the virgin was Mariam. 
28  And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou grace-endued, the Lord is with thee. 
29  But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this might be. 
30  And the angel said to her, Fear not, Mariam: for thou hast found grace with God. 
31  And lo, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bear a Son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 
32  HE shall be great, and shall be called Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give him the throne of his father David: 
33  and he shall reign over the house of Jacob unto the ages; and of his kingdom shall be no end. 

Here in scriptures Jesus is referred to correctly as the Son of the MOST HIGH God, not just as a son of God or as a god. 

His uniqueness as being of God the most High - the God of gods - is established. 

[Waggles]

Luke 8:27  And when he was come forth upon the land, a certain man out of the city met him, who had demons; and for a long time he had worn no clothes, and abode not in any house, but in the tombs. 
28  And seeing Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beseech thee, torment me not. 

Mark 1:32  And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all the ailing and the demoniacs. 
33  And all the city was gathered together at the door. 
34  And he healed many ailing with diverse sicknesses, and cast out many demons; and he suffered not the demons to speak, because they knew him to be Christ. 

Luke 4:41  And demons also came out from many, crying out, and saying [that] Thou art the Son of God. And rebuking them, he suffered them not to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.

Luke 8:30  And Jesus asked him, What is thy name? And he said, Legion; because many demons were entered into him. 
31  And they were entreating him that he would not command them to depart into the abyss. 
32  Now a herd of many swine was there, feeding on the mountain: and they entreated him that he would permit them to enter into those. And he permitted them. 

Matthew 8:28  And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two demoniacs met him, coming forth out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no one could pass by that way. 
29  And lo, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the season? 

James 2:19  THOU believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder.

[Kelly2363]

When men, by mere words and intentional flaws in their obedience and by all manner of contrivances devote falsehood to a cause of learning - that one shall be put away and called anathema. 

 

“For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?” 

[Ancient]

6 hours ago, Willa said:

There may be some truth in the first chapter of Enoch but it is considered a heretical book because if if any part of it is false the whole message was to be cast out and the false prophet was to be cast out of the country.   That is the reason the apocryphal books  were rejected and discarded from cannon.  The reformers said it may be edifying to read the apocrypha but it may not be taught as holy truth.  That is why it was kept beside the Scriptures.  

Our statement of faith states that we embrace only the 66 books of the Bible which are complete.  To teach from other books as though they are equal to Scripture is heresy. 

"We believe that the 66 books of the Canon, from Genesis to Revelation are the exhaustive, inerrant and inspired word of God"

 

https://www.blueletterbible.org/assets/images/copyChkboxOff.gif Eze 13:8. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “Because you have uttered falsehood and seen lying visions, therefore behold, I am against you, declares the Lord GOD.https://www.blueletterbible.org/assets/images/copyChkboxOff.gif                                                        Eze 13:9  My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and who give lying divinations. They shall not be in the council of my people, nor be enrolled in the register of the house of Israel, nor shall they enter the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

I believe there is a difference between apocrypha and pseudocrypha, with the latter being very questionable. It may have already been stated in this thread but the apocrypha was part of the Septuagint and the 1611 Kings James Bible. Why? And why has it been taken away? By whom and by what authority? Enoch, Jubilees and Jasher are not part of the apocrypha they are pseudocrypha. Just saying. With pseudocrypha it is believed that there were different authors per book written over long periods. I certainly wouldn't trust it. I have read a fair bit of the apocrypha and have not come across much that what may be called "out there". Unlike the pseudocrypha.

Shalom

Edited September 7, 2021 by Ancient

[Alive]

14 hours ago, David1701 said:

Aha!  Someone who watched Rumpole of the Bailey?

Sorry, David---I don't get the reference.

[Justin Adams]

31 minutes ago, Ancient said:

I believe there is a difference between apocrypha and pseudocrypha, with the latter being very questionable. It may have already been stated in this thread but the apocrypha was part of the Septuagint and the 1611 Kings James Bible. Why? And why has it been taken away? By whom and by what authority? Enoch, Jubilees and Jasher are not part of the apocrypha they are pseudocrypha. Just saying. With pseudocrypha it is believed that there were different authors per book written over long periods. I certainly wouldn't trust it. I have read a fair bit of the apocrypha and have not come across much that what may be called "out there". Unlike the pseudocrypha.

Shalom

The reformist 'experts' removed some books. The Masorites doctored their texts as well to conform to the later Jewish authorities.

Cessationalists and Dispensationalists and many other -ists had their hands in the various methods to remove books of note that the Apostles and Yeshua were well acquainted with. The modern seminaries and those with Augustine's ideas also did a lot of purging. 

Funny that: they would have us believe they never read the news or watch a movie...

But today we are free to read them all regardless of the doctrinal edicts that would want us all cowering in the corner and only reading their dictates.

How is that working out for them all?  

Edited September 7, 2021 by Justin Adams

[Starise]

18 hours ago, Kelly2363 said:

 

What do you make of this?

 

Isaac Newton is arguably accredited with writing the most important work of modern science, Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica was first published in 1687. What is not known generally is that like Pythagoras of the ancient world, Isaac Newton was also an occultist. What follows is a partial transcript of a speech made by John Maynard Keynes in 1946 to celebrate the tercentenary of Newton’s birth in 1642.

“I believe that the clue to his mind is to be found in his unusual powers of continuous concentrated introspection. A case can be made out, as it also can with Descartes, for regarding him as an accomplished experimentalist. Nothing can be more charming than the tales of his mechanical contrivances when he was a boy. There are his telescopes and his optical experiments, These were essential accomplishments, part of his unequalled all-around technique, but not, I am sure, his peculiar gift, especially amongst his contemporaries. His peculiar gift was the power of holding continuously in his mind a purely mental problem until he had seen straight through it. I fancy his pre-eminence is due to his muscles of intuition being the strongest and most enduring with which a man has ever been gifted. Anyone who has ever attempted pure scientific or philosophical thought knows how one can hold a problem momentarily in one’s mind and apply all one’s powers of concentration to piercing through it, and how it will dissolve and escape and you find that what you are surveying is a blank. I believe that Newton could hold a problem in his mind for hours and days and weeks until it surrendered to him its secret. Then being a supreme mathematical technician he could dress it up, how you will, for purposes of exposition, but it was his intuition which was pre-eminently extraordinary - ‘so happy in his conjectures’, said De Morgan, ‘as to seem to know more than he could possibly have any means of proving’. The proofs, for what they are worth, were, as I have said, dressed up afterwards - they were not the instrument of discovery.” 

“Why do I call him a magician? Because he looked on the whole universe and all that is in it as a riddle, as a secret which could be read by applying pure thought to certain evidence, certain mystic clues which God had laid about the world to allow a sort of philosopher’s treasure hunt to the esoteric brotherhood. He believed that these clues were to be found partly in the evidence of the heavens and in the constitution of elements (and that is what gives the false suggestion of his being an experimental natural philosopher), but also partly in certain papers and traditions handed down by the brethren in an unbroken chain back to the original cryptic revelation in Babylonia. He regarded the universe as a cryptogram set by the Almighty - just as he himself wrapt the discovery of the calculus in a cryptogram when he communicated with Leibniz. By pure thought, by concentration of mind, the riddle, he believed, would be revealed to the initiate. He did read the riddle of the heavens. And he believed that by the same powers of his introspective imagination he would read the riddle of the Godhead, the riddle of past and future events divinely fore-ordained, the riddle of the elements and their constitution from an original undifferentiated first matter, the riddle of health and of immortality. All would be revealed to him if only he could persevere to the end, uninterrupted, by himself, no one coming into the room, reading, copying, testing all by himself, no interruption for God’s sake, no disclosure, no discordant breakings in or criticism, with fear and shrinking as he assailed these half-ordained, half-forbidden things, creeping back into the bosom of the Godhead as into his mother’s womb.”

In speaking about Newton’s chest of papers which were opened after his death Keynes writes: “Another large section is concerned with all branches of apocalyptic writings from which he sought to deduce the secret truths of the Universe - the measurements of Solomon’s Temple, the Book of David, the Book of Revelations, an enormous volume of work of which some part was published in his later days. Along with this are hundreds of pages of Church History and the like, designed to discover the truth of tradition. A large section, judging by the handwriting amongst the earliest, relates to alchemy - transmutation, the philosopher’s stone, the elixir of life. The scope and character of these papers have been hushed up, or at least minimised, by nearly all those who have inspected them. About 1650 there was a considerable group in London, round the publisher Cooper, who during the next twenty years revived interest not only in the English alchemists of the fifteenth century but also in translations of the medieval and post- medieval alchemists. There is an unusual number of manuscripts of the early English alchemists in the libraries of Cambridge. It may be that there was some continuous esoteric tradition within the University which sprang into activity again in the twenty years from 1650 to 1670. At any rate, Newton was clearly an unbridled addict. It is this with which he was occupied ‘about 6 weeks at spring and 6 at the fall when the fire in the elaboratory scarcely went out’ at the very years when he was composing the Principia - and about this he told Humphrey Newton not a word. Moreover, he was almost entirely concerned, not in serious experiment, but in trying to read the riddle of tradition, to find meaning in cryptic verses, to imitate the alleged but largely imaginary experiments of the initiates of past centuries. Newton has left behind him a vast mass of records of these studies. I believe that the greater part are translations and copies made by him of existing books and manuscripts. But there are also extensive records of experiments. I have glanced through a great quantity of this at least 100,000 words, I should say. It is utterly impossible to deny that it is wholly magical and wholly devoid of scientific value; and also impossible not to admit that Newton devoted years of work to it.”

Here's my 000002 worth on this.

Back at that time before humanity knew more about science, the lines between scientific basis and more esoteric 'out there' concepts were not always clear. The men of science at that time might have delved into things any scientist now would never touch with a 10 foot pole. For this reason I think some of them were into concepts some might see as the occult or maybe these ideas sort of cross pollinated with occult ideas. This does not mean all of these men were expressly into the occult. Similar things were said of another man- Leonardo Divinci because he seemingly had ties to some of these ideas.

Admittedly many famous men HAVE been involved with the dark arts in a very intentional way. Even King James who commissioned the KJV Bible was said to have been seriously into the dark arts.

So what conclusions should we draw and why? Can we say that anyone who lived during those times, who used unorthodox methods to arrive at scientific answers was a man who followed the devil? I don't think so. Can we say that there has been a passage of men over time until this very day who partake in the dark arts. I think so. Does this mean all men of science who accomplish great feats of discovery and advancement lean on an occult crutch? Absolutely not.

More recently in the 1940's Hitler and his SS were heavily into occult thought and it is believed by many to have been the reason their technology far far ahead of the rest of the world with even secret anti-gravity machines at that time that were just coming around at wars end.This is a modern day representation of what was going on way back when Enoch wrote about it. The watchers sharing what they knew with men to their own evil ends. Operation paper clip seen many of these SS men go to the US. Could we still be doing the same things or similar behind closed doors? Very likely IMHO. We know there were programs since that time using occult and satanic methods supposedly to further national intelligence and power. This is the deep state doing these things in a supposedly 'Christian' nation. We know the Russians were doing similar. One can almost imagine those SS men taking technical issues to their spirit guides for answers in quasi serious government meetings that were really just occult meeting with the dark forces. This was what? Over 80 years ago? What do you think has happened since or is happening now? 

 I think they have gotten much much better at this inter breeding things since the days of the Nephilim. The process is now so refined that they look just like us only they aren't us and they are in places and positions of influence and power. No more giantism. They have that part figured out now. This takes demonic possession to a whole new level. A host can now be custom made for the recipient. This is why I think Jesus could confidently say with no reservation to those - " You are of your father the devil". They really are, in ways we haven't imagined. Not only sinful men who would not repent but actual spawn of the devil. No chance to them for salvation because they aren't men. 

So to cap off what I attempted to say- Some men of science are still conferring with the dark arts, but I see it mostly as entities and organizations run by evil men who will use WHATEVER or WHOEVER they have access to in order to collectively bring about that last man in world control, either naively thinking it will help them or fully knowing what they are doing. Either way it doesn't matter because the goal is the same. A new world order and a one world leader eventually.

There really isn't solid line here as I see it. More of a rough sketch that encompasses lots of people which includes well meaning men of science who don't realize their work can be used to evil ends along with other men who are fully invested in a satanic agenda.Some surely think they are making the world a better place. This is delusion at it's very peak.

In the end science is merely physical science and we reach answers in the old school way. Anything besides this isn't science and instead, seeks answers from entities they know little about and trust way too much.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Starise