Justice or Vengeance?

[uvn477]

Where's the line drawn between justice and vengeance? Most people would say justice would be if you left it to the courts. But lets face it. The courts aren't perfect and when they fail, then what? Should we go out and seek justice ourselves? Even God says His day will be the day of his vengeance. And isn't God just in everything he does?

[fenwar]

Where's the line drawn between justice and vengeance? Most people would say justice would be if you left it to the courts. But lets face it. The courts aren't perfect and when they fail, then what? Should we go out and seek justice ourselves? Even God says His day will be the day of his vengeance. And isn't God just in everything he does?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you've answered your own question, at least partly...

As Christians "venegance" should be alien to us. We are called to love our enemies. The judge of all the earth will do right and if we truly believe that then we do not need to be distressed when worldly justice seems to have failed.

On the flip side we are called on to "loose the bonds of injustice" - I see this as more dealing with oppression and corruption than seeking revenge. Helping those persecuted by tyrannical regimes, exposing greed and exploitation, and so on, is a different matter to seeking "revenge" against the perpetrators of such acts.

[Leonard]

What rights of an offender does the private seeker of justice violate, when he punishes the offender, that the....'something'.....called "state" does not violate when it punishes the offender?

Why should one be considered wrong, but the other right?

[other one]

when I feel terribly vengeful toward someone, I ask the Lord to seek any that is deserved. I let the Lord make that decision and I have seen it go both ways. When He requires retribution it is much better than any of us could do anyway.

se

[Leonardo Von]

On 8/26/2005 at 3:41 AM, uvn477 said:

Where's the line drawn between justice and vengeance? Most people would say justice would be if you left it to the courts. But lets face it. The courts aren't perfect and when they fail, then what? Should we go out and seek justice ourselves? Even God says His day will be the day of his vengeance. And isn't God just in everything he does?

 

On 8/26/2005 at 8:05 AM, Leonard said:

What rights of an offender does the private seeker of justice violate, when he punishes the offender, that the....'something'.....called "state" does not violate when it punishes the offender? Why should one be considered wrong, but the other right?

 

To this day the "good guys" have not learned the lesson. In the name of the law, they decide for war, separation, judicial process, etc. under the excuse that the sinner has to pay for the evil he did. The police, in the name of law, continue to kill the villain, robbing the property of those who have acquired goods illegally, destroying houses that were built or are being used irregularly.

This may all sound legal, but it's not fair. First, when does the policeman check the veracity of the decisions taken by the Babylonian system? They simply come without mercy or pity, ready to kill or die just to keep this satanic system that rules the world.

The truth is that all law is cruel, ruthless and without any mercy. For example:

 

•        It does not matter if you know or not to brush your teeth: if you brush wrong you will suffer tooth loss;

•        It does not matter if you know the correct way to feed yourself: if you eat improperly, you may have diabetes, high blood pressure, stroke, etc.;

•        In front of a road humps, police, fire brigade and ambulance have to stop. It does not matter if they are chasing after a thug, going to put out a fire or succoring someone with heart attack, stroke, etc.

•        If you participate in a society and are voting for something, you have to comply, whether you are able to comply or not.

 

As long as we are in this world, we will be subject to everything that is occurring in it, as well as to the judgment of the Eternal on it (see Rev 18.4). Regardless whether we want or not, this world as a whole is a tremendous injustice ruled by tyrannical rules that do not forgive. For example: do you want something more tyrannical than time? It does not stop, does not wait. It simply passes and we together with it.

Finally, by the legal regime, the human being is placed in the background. Everything is done to defend the system and the interests of the class that dominates it.

This may be legal, but it's not honest. By the way, almost all that is legal, isn’t honest.

To illustrate this, let us suppose that a man, after several years of using and abusing his wife, resolves, from one moment to another, to change her for another only because it no longer corresponds to all his expectations. Legally speaking, such a man divorcing his wife may be legally correct. Notwithstanding, is it fair to him, just when she needs him most (now that she's older), to simply exchange it for a more attractive one? This is a dishonest attitude from man to wife, albeit legal.

May Jesus help us to seek the righteousness of the Kingdom of Heaven (namely, Jesus himself – Matthew 6.33). After all, when we sin, He did not charge us this, but He preferred to take on the human form specially to pay the price of our sin, leaving us an example to follow:

 

·        “For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1Peter 2.20-24).

[Running Gator]

On 8/26/2005 at 6:05 AM, Leonard said:

What rights of an offender does the private seeker of justice violate, when he punishes the offender, that the....'something'.....called "state" does not violate when it punishes the offender?

 

Why should one be considered wrong, but the other right?

One is based upon emotion and one is not.  The "state" has an explicit set of rules that if violated carry a set of circumstances.   The guilt and innocence of the individual is determined by a person/group of people who have no emotional tie to the outcome.  

When an individual choose to punish someone they are doing so based off of the emotions of the moment and that does not always (as in almost never) produce the best, or fairest results. 

And yes, God is just in everything He does, which is why He tells you to leave it up to Him. God does not let emotions dictate the punishment. 

[Leonardo Von]

On 8/26/2005 at 8:05 AM, Leonard said:

What rights of an offender does the private seeker of justice violate, when he punishes the offender, that the....'something'.....called "state" does not violate when it punishes the offender?

 

I agree with you. In fact, no follower of Christ has the right to judge, condemn or punish anyone, much less use the hands of others to do this evil against the neighbor. Especially considering that the law exists only because there is no pre-disposition for the good. Love has been excluded. And, as Paul said, without love, there is no profit (1Corinthians 13:1-3).

The law was given for each one to try to gain heaven by his own merits. However, as each one is only able to speak and do according to his nature (Matthew 12: 34-35, Luke 6:45; Tg 3.6-8), the sinner has no way of doing good (Isa 64:6; Rom 3.9-18; 7.13-21). Therefore, if he tries to pay his debt, he will not be able, for beyond this being great (Psalm 49: 7,8), it will only grow with his acts.

The law serves only to commemorate sins (Heb. 10:3), to make the offense increase (Rom. 5:20) and to make each guilty before the Eternal (Rom. 3:19). I know this sounds exaggerated. However, those who try to be righteous on the basis of laws are easily drawn from cruel thoughts about their neighbor (Eph. 7:16). Especially when they think that do not need him. In this case, he removes from himself any possibility of reconciliation (unless he begs for his forgiveness, recognizing his value – see 2 Timothy 3:1-5).

The purpose of the law is to ensure that we will be able to carry out all our selfish desires, either by assuring ourselves the possession of what we have achieved (keeping others away from our rights), or by giving us permission to turn against the neighbor if he denies himself to fulfill his obligations for with us. That is, on one way or another, the law distances individuals from each other, either to secure rights or to collect duties (one is revolted for having denied his right, the other for being coerced into granting what Supposes to be his right).

The detail that everyone forgets is that, as far as we measure, we will be measured as well (Luke 6:38). Anyone who tries to establish himself in the law falls from grace (Gal. 5: 4) and is obliged to pay even the last penny of debt (Matt 5: 23-26).

You may ask: But the Holy Scripture says that the law is holy and the commandment holy, just and good (Rom. 7:12).

The law is good, if one uses it legitimately (1 Tim. 1:8), that is, when we use it as a two-edged sword to injure our ego, to cause our earthly nature to die (Luke 9:23; Col 3.5). If you use the law to fight against evil (or even against Ha-Satan and his minions), evil has already won. After all, you will be doing evil against evil. The evil that was coming against you might even lose, but in the end who won was the evil within you. Evil is only defeated when the good finds its place in us to show itself to all (Rom. 12: 19-21).

May Jesus help us to solve everything through love (Romans 4.6-8):

 

·        “Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.”

 

Edited January 11, 2017 by Leonardo Von

[Retrobyter]

On 8/26/2005 at 2:41 AM, uvn477 said:

Where's the line drawn between justice and vengeance? Most people would say justice would be if you left it to the courts. But lets face it. The courts aren't perfect and when they fail, then what? Should we go out and seek justice ourselves? Even God says His day will be the day of his vengeance. And isn't God just in everything he does?

Shalom, uvn477.

How quickly we've forgotten the simple truths of God and His Law.

First, let's define terms:

justice |ˈjəstəs| 
noun
1 just behavior or treatment: a concern for justice, peace, and genuine respect for people.• 
the quality of being fair and reasonable: the justice of his case.• 
the administration of the law or authority in maintaining this: a tragic miscarriage of justice.• 
(Justice) the personification of justice, usually a blindfolded woman holding scales and a sword.

2 a judge or magistrate, in particular a judge of the supreme court of a country or state.

vengeance |ˈvenjəns| 
noun
punishment inflicted or retribution exacted for an injury or wrong.

There's also a difference between justice or being just and fairness or being fair.

Being fair or equitable is giving each person an equal amount of something.

Being just is giving a person what his or her work has been worth.

When two people do the same job, one would expect that the just thing to do would be to be fair with the pay for that job. That's being equitable. That's being fair. And, in a perfect world, where two people would be sharing the load equally, they SHOULD get equal pay.

But, say you have two people doing work at a company. One of the two does 90% of the work needed to accomplish a job, and the other only does 10% of the work. The FAIR or EQUITABLE method of pay would give them both 50% of the profits earned by that work. The JUST method of pay would be to award the person doing 90% of the work, 90% of the profits earned by that work!

Justice says, "Do good, be repaid with good; do evil, be repaid with evil." And, the judge will attempt to make the punishment fit the crime.

Vengeance says, "Do evil, and you MUST be repaid with evil! And, if the government can't do it, I will!" Vengeance is LASHING OUT because one has been hurt by some deed or action. The pain is so great, that one seeks SATISFACTION.

BUT, God says,

Romans 12:9-21
9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
11 Not slothful (lazy) in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
KJV

Therefore, IF there's vengeance to be had, LEAVE IT IN THE LORD'S HANDS! It's not UP TO YOU to exact payment or seek satisfaction! Remember: Even if injustice prevails in this world, the day is coming when we stand before the Messiah:

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ (the Messiah); that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
KJV

and

Romans 14:10-13
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ (the Messiah).
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
KJV

Isaiah 45:20-25
20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour (a Rescuer/a Deliverer); there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
KJV

God is in everything HE does, but don't be deceived into thinking that you can take matters into your own hands and be vindicated. It doesn't work that way.

[kwikphilly]

Quote

What rights of an offender does the private seeker of justice violate, when he punishes the offender, that the....'something'.....called "state" does not violate when it punishes the offender?

I don't believe that is the the question to ask .....it is not about the "rights" of an offender but that no Christian has the right to be judge ,jury &/or prosecutor......

Quote

And yes, God is just in everything He does, which is why He tells you to leave it up to Him. God does not let emotions dictate the punishment.        OotS

Amen,if legal intervention is warranted then thats what we need to do,and always-in any event   "God is Vindicator"

[Guest Thallasa]

On ‎26‎/‎08‎/‎2005 at 10:21 AM, fenwar said:

 

I think you've answered your own question, at least partly...

 

As Christians "venegance" should be alien to us. We are called to love our enemies. The judge of all the earth will do right and if we truly believe that then we do not need to be distressed when worldly justice seems to have failed.

 

On the flip side we are called on to "loose the bonds of injustice" - I see this as more dealing with oppression and corruption than seeking revenge. Helping those persecuted by tyrannical regimes, exposing greed and exploitation, and so on, is a different matter to seeking "revenge" against the perpetrators of such acts.

Of course it is fine to search justice by by the lawful authorities ,and to keep doing so if neccessary .

 

On ‎26‎/‎08‎/‎2005 at 1:05 PM, Leonard said:

What rights of an offender does the private seeker of justice violate, when he punishes the offender, that the....'something'.....called "state" does not violate when it punishes the offender?

 

Why should one be considered wrong, but the other right?

It would depend on the circumstances, for example if there were no courts or lawful authorities ,then justice might be carried out by oneself , if one is sure of the guilt of the perpetrator as would have happened long ago . One migth have to be ones own "sheriff ',and arrest and put on trial, a person who might also be a danger to other people, if let go .

One must interpret according to the present circumstances .Revenge is really in most ways different from Justice, as it has the purpose of 'hatred', whereas Justice has the purpose of' rebalancing' what has been lost by the bad deed/s , and of prevention in the future .