House of Israel/The Church/Body of Christ/natural/grafted in - all made 1.

[DeighAnn]

Jacob became Israel, had 12 sons, became a nation. 

Israel divided into two Houses, one called Judah other Israel.

House of Israel didn't obey God, went into captivity then were scattered to the world, they losing their identity  (God didn't lose them, ever) 
One of the reasons Jesus came was to gather the lost sheep aka the scattered sheep of the House of Israel.  
House of Judah didn't obey God, went into captivity and mostly went back to Jerusalem (though the gentiles now ruled it) then scattered.

For the past two thousand years Jesus has been gathering both the lost sheep and the 'whomsoever woulds'/the 'grafting ins' together into one body.  Today it is known as the Body of Christ/Christians/The spiritual house of Israel, all made one.  Those who are strong in faith, giving glory to God and BELIEVING IN HIM, that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

Peter and Paul both had same mission, different 'peoples'.    Preach the words of God to the lost sheep and to those who wish to be grafted in.  

The OT speaks over and over again about what shall happen/become of the House of Israel, what takes place in the last days the two Houses becoming one again, and where and what they will be doing during the Millennium.  

Because the Church is the House of Israel, it is never spoken of in terms of what happens to it.  The Church is just a NAME for when two or more people are gathered in His name.  It is not a separate entity and the Body of Christ isn't going to be separated so that 1/2 can go away while one 1/2 stays.  

If anyone knows of any scripture that proves this wrong, please put it forth.

If anyone has an opinion without scripture, please do not.  

Is there any way to tell the difference between the natural branch and the wild branch grafted in?  

If we don't know who is who is there ANY WAY God would require us to follow different paths?  


Question 1 for a friend - ly 
 

[AdHoc]

On 10/29/2021 at 3:02 PM, DeighAnn said:

Jacob became Israel, had 12 sons, became a nation. 

Israel divided into two Houses, one called Judah other Israel.

House of Israel didn't obey God, went into captivity then were scattered to the world, they losing their identity  (God didn't lose them, ever) 
One of the reasons Jesus came was to gather the lost sheep aka the scattered sheep of the House of Israel.  
House of Judah didn't obey God, went into captivity and mostly went back to Jerusalem (though the gentiles now ruled it) then scattered.

For the past two thousand years Jesus has been gathering both the lost sheep and the 'whomsoever woulds'/the 'grafting ins' together into one body.  Today it is known as the Body of Christ/Christians/The spiritual house of Israel, all made one.  Those who are strong in faith, giving glory to God and BELIEVING IN HIM, that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

Peter and Paul both had same mission, different 'peoples'.    Preach the words of God to the lost sheep and to those who wish to be grafted in.  

The OT speaks over and over again about what shall happen/become of the House of Israel, what takes place in the last days the two Houses becoming one again, and where and what they will be doing during the Millennium.  

Because the Church is the House of Israel, it is never spoken of in terms of what happens to it.  The Church is just a NAME for when two or more people are gathered in His name.  It is not a separate entity and the Body of Christ isn't going to be separated so that 1/2 can go away while one 1/2 stays.  

If anyone knows of any scripture that proves this wrong, please put it forth.

If anyone has an opinion without scripture, please do not.  

Is there any way to tell the difference between the natural branch and the wild branch grafted in?  

If we don't know who is who is there ANY WAY God would require us to follow different paths?  


Question 1 for a friend - ly 
 

 

The approach to God's dealings with Israel can be approached in a number of ways. The best is most probably ...

1. Origin

1) From Adam to Noah the earth was one nation and one language. From Babel onward, because God divided them, we have THE NATIONS. They are offspring of Adam via Noah.

2) About 500 years after the flood, God called one man, a Syrian, and changed his name to Abraham, which means "father of many nations". From his various offspring God chose one, Isaac, and from him made a new NATION called Israel. From Jacob onward we have THE NATIONS and THE NATION OF ISRAEL They are offspring of Adam via Noah via Isaac

3) From resurrection day, when our Lord breathed His Spirit into His disciples (Jn.20.22), a New Man was born. Ephesians 2:14–15 reads;

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace.

In this scripture a number of things are revealed;

1. God has created a "a New Man"
2. This New Man is made from "THE TWO". The TWO are (i) THE NATIONS above in point 1, and (ii) THE NATION of Israel in point 2 above.
3. The second one, Israel, has the Law of Moses. This Law forbade Israel to have relations with the NATIONS. Thus it created "ENMITY" and DIVISION. To combat this, the Law FOR MEMBERS of the NEW MAN is abolished by Christ's death.
4. This New Man is born to the Holy Spirit - not mankind, making it NEW and UNIQUE
5. This New Man has no human ETHNICITY (Gal.3:28).
6. The members of the New Man are completely new and the old and past is GONE (2nd Cor.5:17)
7. The members of the New Man had their ORIGIN in Christ (Jn.12:24)

2. Bible History

The Romans, one of THE NATIONS, ruled Israel in 65 AD. The NATION ISRAEL hated and persecuted the NEW MAN. Acts of the Apostles gives THREE ENTITIES. Later, after 70 AD, the NATION of Rome dispersed the NATION of Israel and persecuted the NEW MAN. These THREE ENTITIES remain to this day. Today, ROME wears priests clothes, ISRAEL hates Jesus Christ, and the NEW MAN is persecuted for loving Jesus Christ. In the history of the Bible THREE PEOPLES ARE SHOWN.

3. The Olive Tree of Romans 11

2nd Peter 1:20 says that we may not interpret the Bible privately. That is, the Bible must be interpreted by the Bible. A Tree in the Bible in parable is a KING and his KINGDOM (Judges 9, Daniel 2, Ezekiel 31). Thus, the Olive Tree cannot depict the Church. It depicts a King and His Kingdom. (1) The Root is Holy. This can only be Jesus Christ - the King. (2) The natural Branches are presently in UNBELIEF and are cut out. When the ties of the Gentiles are full, that it, when Christ defeats the Gentiles at Armageddon, the natural branches will be grated in again - not into the Church, but the Kingdom. Christ will live in Jerusalem and so Israel will be His host nation. (3) The wild branches are grafted in because of faith. Their position is precarious for they may be cut out for ill behavior. When the times of the Gentiles are full, Christ will be (1) King of Israel, be (2) King of kings (those of the Church who prove worthy of it, and (3) King of the Nations. The Olive Tree is thus fulfilled with THREE entities - a KINGDOM - and ISRAEL is a SEPARATE PART OF IT.

4. New Jerusalem

When all men have been resurrected and judged by the time of the White Throne (Rev.20), God will "RENEW" (lit. Gk.) the Heavens and the Earth. Jerusalem was for RULING Israel and the home of the KING. New Jerusalem is the HOME of the KING of kings. (1) The WALLS are the Church. (2) The GATES are Israel. (3) And without the City are THE NATIONS. Even in eternity future the three entities remain separate - THE NATIONS, ISRAEL, THE CHURCH.

God bless.

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

The approach to God's dealings with Israel can be approached in a number of ways. The best is most probably ...

1. Origin

1) From Adam to Noah the earth was one nation and one language. From Babel onward, because God divided them, we have THE NATIONS. They are offspring of Adam via Noah.

2) About 500 years after the flood, God called one man, a Syrian, and changed his name to Abraham, which means "father of many nations". From his various offspring God chose one, Isaac, and from him made a new NATION called Israel. From Jacob onward we have THE NATIONS and THE NATION OF ISRAEL They are offspring of Adam via Noah via Isaac

3) From resurrection day, when our Lord breathed His Spirit into His disciples (Jn.20.22), a New Man was born. Ephesians 2:14–15 reads;

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace.

In this scripture a number of things are revealed;

1. God has created a "a New Man"
2. This New Man is made from "THE TWO". The TWO are (i) THE NATIONS above in point 1, and (ii) THE NATION of Israel in point 2 above.
3. The second one, Israel, has the Law of Moses. This Law forbade Israel to have relations with the NATIONS. Thus it created "ENMITY" and DIVISION. To combat this, the Law FOR MEMBERS of the NEW MAN is abolished by Christ's death.
4. This New Man is born to the Holy Spirit - not mankind, making it NEW and UNIQUE
5. This New Man has no human ETHNICITY (Gal.3:28).
6. The members of the New Man are completely new and the old and past is GONE (2nd Cor.5:17)
7. The members of the New Man had their ORIGIN in Christ (Jn.12:24)

2. Bible History

The Romans, one of THE NATIONS, ruled Israel in 65 AD. The NATION ISRAEL hated and persecuted the NEW MAN. Acts of the Apostles gives THREE ENTITIES. Later, after 70 AD, the NATION of Rome dispersed the NATION of Israel and persecuted the NEW MAN. These THREE ENTITIES remain to this day. Today, ROME wears priests clothes, ISRAEL hates Jesus Christ, and the NEW MAN is persecuted for loving Jesus Christ. In the history of the Bible THREE PEOPLES ARE SHOWN.

3. The Olive Tree of Romans 11

2nd Peter 1:20 says that we may not interpret the Bible privately. That is, the Bible must be interpreted by the Bible. A Tree in the Bible in parable is a KING and his KINGDOM (Judges 9, Daniel 2, Ezekiel 31). Thus, the Olive Tree cannot depict the Church. It depicts a King and His Kingdom. (1) The Root is Holy. This can only be Jesus Christ - the King. (2) The natural Branches are presently in UNBELIEF and are cut out. When the ties of the Gentiles are full, that it, when Christ defeats the Gentiles at Armageddon, the natural branches will be grated in again - not into the Church, but the Kingdom. Christ will live in Jerusalem and so Israel will be His host nation. (3) The wild branches are grafted in because of faith. Their position is precarious for they may be cut out for ill behavior. When the times of the Gentiles are full, Christ will be (1) King of Israel, be (2) King of kings (those of the Church who prove worthy of it, and (3) King of the Nations. The Olive Tree is thus fulfilled with THREE entities - a KINGDOM - and ISRAEL is a SEPARATE PART OF IT.

4. New Jerusalem

When all men have been resurrected and judged by the time of the White Throne (Rev.20), God will "RENEW" (lit. Gk.) the Heavens and the Earth. Jerusalem was for RULING Israel and the home of the KING. New Jerusalem is the HOME of the KING of kings. (1) The WALLS are the Church. (2) The GATES are Israel. (3) And without the City are THE NATIONS. Even in eternity future the three entities remain separate - THE NATIONS, ISRAEL, THE CHURCH.

God bless.

Hi Ad,  (CAPTIOL LETTERS NOT ME YELLING just how I think in writing, please keep it about the info not how it comes across)

1.  Where to start.  From Adam to Nimrod, one language.  (As for how many nations were already under that one language and when they came about is a completely different topic  and so I will just let it alone.  Changing language does not change DNA.  No matter what MAN may say 'races/nations' don't come from one race/nation, it is impossible under the laws of God. Not to mention God is very specific in that like comes from like)


2.  Abraham - Jacob and the 12 tribes that became the House of Jacob or Israel.  That nation was spilt into two, 10 northern House of Israel, 2 southern House of Judah.  They didn't obey and so first House of Israel went into captivity and 200 years later House of Judah went into captivity.  FROM THAT POINT ON THERE WAS NO NATION.  When House came out of captivity they were scattered to the world to forget who they were.  Jesus when He arrived couple hundred years later said, I have come for the scattered sheep of the house of Israel.  He was in Jerusalem at the time ROME was in control, the Jews had been allowed to go back and build the temple but IT WAS NOT ISRAEL.  Wouldn't be Israel again until the Lev 26 prophecy was fulfilled and it was back in 1948.  The NATION of Israel by that time didn't hate the NEW MAN they didn't know who they were.  I would maybe go with the House of Judah did but we know at that time the so called House of Judah, or the Jews in Jerusalem at that time were of the synagogue of Satan, never in bondage to any man (descended from wrong son) etc.  

3.  What is the SUBJECT?  And who is the subject?

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith He loved us,

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:14 For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;


THOSE OF THE CIRCUMCISION AND THOSE NOT OF THE CIRCUMCISION


ARE MADE ONE, 


Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

THOSE OF THE LAW, AND WHOMSOEVER WOULD ARE MADE ONE  -  CHRISTIANS

Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

RE STATING THAT IT IS BETWEEN THOSE OF THE LAW AND THOSE OF FAITH.

Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

WE ALL RECEIVE OUR ACCESS TO THE FATHER BY THE LORD AND SAVIOUR, THE LAMB OF GOD

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

SO IF ANYONE EVER TELLS YOU THE CHURCH AND THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL ARE SEPARATE

 THE CHAPTER SHOULD BE SIMILAR TO THIS.  STATED, RE STATED, TOLD IN ANOTHER WAY WITH ANOTHER EXAMPLE AND THEN STATED AGAIN JUST TO MAKE SURE THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT AS TO WHO IS WHO AND WHAT IS WHAT. 

Lost sheep and those grafted in and the House of Judah still blinded


Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;

Ephesians 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The rest of that stuff you wrote about this chapter I don't see.  If you have more chapter and verses to back those up please bring them forward.  




3.  The OLIVE tree   OLIVE    EL A YAH  

elaia: an olive (the tree or the fruit)
Original Word: ἐλαία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: elaia
Phonetic Spelling: (el-ah'-yah)
Definition: an olive (the tree or the fruit)
Usage: an olive tree; the Mount of Olives.
HELPS Word-studies
1636 elaía – an olive tree (collectively, the Mount of Olives); (figuratively) the people of God, indwelt by the Holy Spirit (the fulfillment/antitype of oil in Scripture).



kallielaios: a cultivated olive (tree)
Original Word: καλλιέλαιος, οῦ, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kallielaios
Phonetic Spelling: (kal-le-el'-ah-yos)
Definition: a cultivated olive (tree)
Usage: a cultivated olive tree.
HELPS Word-studies
2565 kalliélaios (from kallos, "desirable" and 1636 /elaía, "an olive tree") – a cultivated olive-tree – especially a healthy, properly cultivated olive tree. 2565 /kalliélaios ("a cultivated olive tree") is only used in Ro 11:24 where it refers to believing Israel (OT believers).


So you have lost me on the rest of that part.  Again, I would need a chapter stating the Gentiles are ON THEIR OWN, having been separated from what they had been made a part of.  

You see, I have no DOCTRINE that needs them separated and those who do don't seem to care that What GOD has put together no man should try and take apart.  


4.  Once we get to the NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH this entire age will be gone along with ALL that evil.  All will be sons of God.  When we see the Millennial temple it clearly shows NO CHURCH.  There is no mention of the church.  There are the 12 tribes.  

What you are saying is the direct opposite of what is written.  THAT is a big problem.  HOPEFULLY I have totally misunderstood what you were putting forth.  AGAIN
 

phesians 2:16 And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God


YOU SEE it is not what is written.  THE CHURCH being 'separate' is what man says 

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief

corner Stone;

Ephesians 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Let me know.....D

 

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Hi Ad,  (CAPTIOL LETTERS NOT ME YELLING just how I think in writing, please keep it about the info not how it comes across)

1.  Where to start.  From Adam to Nimrod, one language.  (As for how many nations were already under that one language and when they came about is a completely different topic  and so I will just let it alone.  Changing language does not change DNA.  No matter what MAN may say 'races/nations' don't come from one race/nation, it is impossible under the laws of God. Not to mention God is very specific in that like comes from like)


2.  Abraham - Jacob and the 12 tribes that became the House of Jacob or Israel.  That nation was spilt into two, 10 northern House of Israel, 2 southern House of Judah.  They didn't obey and so first House of Israel went into captivity and 200 years later House of Judah went into captivity.  FROM THAT POINT ON THERE WAS NO NATION.  When House came out of captivity they were scattered to the world to forget who they were.  Jesus when He arrived couple hundred years later said, I have come for the scattered sheep of the house of Israel.  He was in Jerusalem at the time ROME was in control, the Jews had been allowed to go back and build the temple but IT WAS NOT ISRAEL.  Wouldn't be Israel again until the Lev 26 prophecy was fulfilled and it was back in 1948.  The NATION of Israel by that time didn't hate the NEW MAN they didn't know who they were.  I would maybe go with the House of Judah did but we know at that time the so called House of Judah, or the Jews in Jerusalem at that time were of the synagogue of Satan, never in bondage to any man (descended from wrong son) etc.  

3.  What is the SUBJECT?  And who is the subject?

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith He loved us,

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:14 For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;


THOSE OF THE CIRCUMCISION AND THOSE NOT OF THE CIRCUMCISION


ARE MADE ONE, 


Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

THOSE OF THE LAW, AND WHOMSOEVER WOULD ARE MADE ONE  -  CHRISTIANS

Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

RE STATING THAT IT IS BETWEEN THOSE OF THE LAW AND THOSE OF FAITH.

Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

WE ALL RECEIVE OUR ACCESS TO THE FATHER BY THE LORD AND SAVIOUR, THE LAMB OF GOD

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

SO IF ANYONE EVER TELLS YOU THE CHURCH AND THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL ARE SEPARATE

 THE CHAPTER SHOULD BE SIMILAR TO THIS.  STATED, RE STATED, TOLD IN ANOTHER WAY WITH ANOTHER EXAMPLE AND THEN STATED AGAIN JUST TO MAKE SURE THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT AS TO WHO IS WHO AND WHAT IS WHAT. 

Lost sheep and those grafted in and the House of Judah still blinded


Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;

Ephesians 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The rest of that stuff you wrote about this chapter I don't see.  If you have more chapter and verses to back those up please bring them forward.  




3.  The OLIVE tree   OLIVE    EL A YAH  

elaia: an olive (the tree or the fruit)
Original Word: ἐλαία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: elaia
Phonetic Spelling: (el-ah'-yah)
Definition: an olive (the tree or the fruit)
Usage: an olive tree; the Mount of Olives.
HELPS Word-studies
1636 elaía – an olive tree (collectively, the Mount of Olives); (figuratively) the people of God, indwelt by the Holy Spirit (the fulfillment/antitype of oil in Scripture).



kallielaios: a cultivated olive (tree)
Original Word: καλλιέλαιος, οῦ, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kallielaios
Phonetic Spelling: (kal-le-el'-ah-yos)
Definition: a cultivated olive (tree)
Usage: a cultivated olive tree.
HELPS Word-studies
2565 kalliélaios (from kallos, "desirable" and 1636 /elaía, "an olive tree") – a cultivated olive-tree – especially a healthy, properly cultivated olive tree. 2565 /kalliélaios ("a cultivated olive tree") is only used in Ro 11:24 where it refers to believing Israel (OT believers).


So you have lost me on the rest of that part.  Again, I would need a chapter stating the Gentiles are ON THEIR OWN, having been separated from what they had been made a part of.  

You see, I have no DOCTRINE that needs them separated and those who do don't seem to care that What GOD has put together no man should try and take apart.  


4.  Once we get to the NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH this entire age will be gone along with ALL that evil.  All will be sons of God.  When we see the Millennial temple it clearly shows NO CHURCH.  There is no mention of the church.  There are the 12 tribes.  

What you are saying is the direct opposite of what is written.  THAT is a big problem.  HOPEFULLY I have totally misunderstood what you were putting forth.  AGAIN
 

phesians 2:16 And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God


YOU SEE it is not what is written.  THE CHURCH being 'separate' is what man says 

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief

corner Stone;

Ephesians 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Let me know.....D

 

Thanks for your reply. I gave four proofs that Israel and the Church are separate entities, (i) Origin, (ii) History from the Bible, (iii) The Olive Tree in Romans 11, and (iv) New Jerusalem. Let's just take the first - Origin. Israel come from the LOINS of Jacob. Genealogy is very important here because of the Covenant of "and everlasting priesthood" - the Levites, and the Davidic Covenant. Then, in sharp contrast to Israel, "brethren according to the FLESH" (), we have the Church which was raised up by the Holy Spirit. Surely this is worthy of comment because if Israel and the Church are one, then a terrible contradiction arises which says that the rebirth by the Holy Spirit is equal to sex between two Jews. It further says that the human nature conferred by a coupe producing a child is equal to the divine nature conferred by the Holy Spirit - the very God Himself.

Next, if Israel persecuted the Church, and hated Jesus, labeling Him as an imposter, how could they be the same as those who have embraced Jesus and love Him. How could Israel have suffered all the curses of the Law and be the same as the Church that has found grace and salvation by Christ?

Next, how could the Olive Tree be Israel when Israel, in UNBELIEF, is cut out. Surely a comment on that should be made.

Finally, How could Israel and the Church be ONE when they are totally different entities in New Jerusalem - the final state. Even their symbolism is different. The Church is precious stones while Israel are pearls.

I think that the case is more than established that Israel and the Church are SEPARATE entities.

However, you spent much time on Ephesians 2 and "who are the subjects". I will answer this briefly. We see in Acts 19 that Paul spent two years in Ephesus, in which time "all Asia heard the word BOTH Jew and Gentile" (v.10). We also see from Acts 19 that the Jews hardened their hearts and refused to believe AND opposed Paul. We also see that because goddess Diana was so popular, the Gentiles opposed Paul. Without any long explanation it is clear that THREE entities existed in Ephesus. (i) The Jews of Israel who opposed Paul, (ii) The Gentiles who opposed Paul. And (iii) those Jews and those Gentiles who embraced the gospel and formed the Church - which was opposed by the other two.

The grammar of Ephesians 2:15 says that God made a (iii) New Man FROM the other two - (i) "the CIRCUMCISION", and (ii) "the UN-CIRCUMCISION. That automatically gives THREE;

1. The uncircumcision
2. The circumcision
3. The New Man

The rest of Ephesians 2 shows how (i) this New Man, made with Jews and Gentiles, can be one because the Law of Moses hinders this. And (ii) how Gentiles are made heirs to Abraham's Promises WITHOUT becoming Israelites. They are made "partakers of a COMMONWEALTH". The Greek word rendered "Commonwealth" means how men "profit from a government WITHOUT being citizens". England has a commonwealth. Citizens of Canada and New Zealand profit from England's trade resources, but Canadians and New Zealanders stay citizens of Canada and New Zealand respectively.

This problem of citizenship and the promises made to Abraham is again dealt with in Galatians. Chapter 3 ends with the New Man in verse 28 in which there is NO ETHNICITY, but because those of the New Man are "IN Christ" - Who in turn is a "seed of Abraham" - they automatically become eligible WITHOUT having been IN Isaac.

Take your time to consider this.

God bless

[DeighAnn]

28 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks for your reply. I gave four proofs that Israel and the Church are separate entities, (i) Origin, (ii) History from the Bible, (iii) The Olive Tree in Romans 11, and (iv) New Jerusalem. Let's just take the first - Origin. Israel come from the LOINS of Jacob. Genealogy is very important here because of the Covenant of "and everlasting priesthood" - the Levites, and the Davidic Covenant. Then, in sharp contrast to Israel, "brethren according to the FLESH" (), we have the Church which was raised up by the Holy Spirit. Surely this is worthy of comment because if Israel and the Church are one, then a terrible contradiction arises which says that the rebirth by the Holy Spirit is equal to sex between two Jews. It further says that the human nature conferred by a coupe producing a child is equal to the divine nature conferred by the Holy Spirit - the very God Himself.

Next, if Israel persecuted the Church, and hated Jesus, labeling Him as an imposter, how could they be the same as those who have embraced Jesus and love Him. How could Israel have suffered all the curses of the Law and be the same as the Church that has found grace and salvation by Christ?

Thank you, I think, but you might not, IDK, I am really going to NEED SCRIPTURES for what you are saying cause so far they are conclusions not based on anything I have read BUT (capitols are not yelling here) I am interested to see which verses you brought together to arrive at these beliefs and we are going to need to define our terms because you have the House of Judahs rejection of Christ being put upon all 12 tribes when 10 of them were scattered to the world hundreds of years before and had nothing to do with it, and for that matter neither did most of that House as they were...I digress. 

If I am hearing you correctly then only the NOT ever Gods people can be a part of the assembling of Christians.  None of those Christ came for, His own scattered sheep may.  

All 12 tribes make up Israel.  
Jews come from the tribe of Judah (or those living in there may be also called Jews)   That leaves 12 others who weren't around to reject.   

So it wasn't 'Israel' who persecuted the church at all.  And IT WASN'T really even the Jews of house of JUDAH. 

It was those CLAIMING TO BE JEWS, who do lie,  WHO WERE NOT,  but are of the synagogue of Satan, vipers (serpent) liars, of their father the devil....  

The beginnings of the church WAS made up of ALL JEWS.  Either those Jews (by birth), who 'through faith' no matter who their earthly daddy under the law was or those Gentiles (Jews by where they lived)  who 'through faith' no matter who their daddy not under the law was.  

Whomsoever.  The church is made up of EVERYONE.  You do understand the House of Israel being scattered to the world and the timing of it all, right?  Do you understand that to THIS DAY (not knowing who they really are descended from) they consider themselves Gentile converts to Christianity?  Let me ask you if 'the sands of the seas and the dust of the earth and the stars of the sky describe GODS BLESSING on this one family AND NO OTHER, then who would the vast majority of the Christians come from?  NOT GENTILES.  Since Christians are the biggest 'religion' how is that possible it is made up of those not of the blood line?  

Peter was an apostle to?  while Paul was an apostle to?  Who is not supposed to boast against...lest they be cut off also?  

Christ came to gather the scattered, of whom He would not lose ONE.  Don't you think that they would be most inclined to come to faith just naturally?  

FAITH comes by hearing and hearing by the words of God.  It is only upon FAITH that you receive the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit doesn't come upon those who have NOT heard or believed the words of God.  So the Holy Spirit is not raising up the church at all.  

I'll stop here to  see where we are
Again, capitol letters are not yelling here.    d

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The rest of Ephesians 2 shows how (i) this New Man, made with Jews and Gentiles, can be one because the Law of Moses hinders this. And (ii) how Gentiles are made heirs to Abraham's Promises WITHOUT becoming Israelites. They are made "partakers of a COMMONWEALTH". The Greek word rendered "Commonwealth" means how men "profit from a government WITHOUT being citizens". England has a commonwealth. Citizens of Canada and New Zealand profit from England's trade resources, but Canadians and New Zealanders stay citizens of Canada and New Zealand respectively.

This problem of citizenship and the promises made to Abraham is again dealt with in Galatians. Chapter 3 ends with the New Man in verse 28 in which there is NO ETHNICITY, but because those of the New Man are "IN Christ" - Who in turn is a "seed of Abraham" - they automatically become eligible WITHOUT having been IN Isaac.

Take your time to consider this.

The new man is the Christ man.  The Christ man is whomsoever would.  


Do us a favor.  Find ONE, just one single promise made to 'the church' on its own that states it's place or it's jobs or it's anything even in the Millennium?  (other than those given in the 'grafting IN' and it's make up the Body of Christ)  

any thing like
Ezekiel 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Ezekiel 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
Ezekiel 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Ezekiel 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Ezekiel 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Ezekiel 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

I am sure you don't need me to do 100 more of these but I shouldn't assume, so if you need more I will produce them.  


What should give us pause is that they are not ever considered 'separate' by what is written only by what is concluded by man.  And when you look at the words written that CHRIST PUT FORTH, we are not in that good of shape and a GREAT falling away from lack of truth is clearly seen as 5 of the 7 don't even get a passing grade and He was about to disown some of them and that is at the end as The Revealing of Christ comes at the end.  ( I know about church periods through time but I ALSO know they still can be found as described but the GOOD ones hardly can)


Let me ask you, if it wasn't for a pre trib rapure of the church, would it make a difference?  If so, how?

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Thank you, I think, but you might not, IDK, I am really going to NEED SCRIPTURES for what you are saying cause so far they are conclusions not based on anything I have read BUT (capitols are not yelling here) I am interested to see which verses you brought together to arrive at these beliefs and we are going to need to define our terms because you have the House of Judahs rejection of Christ being put upon all 12 tribes when 10 of them were scattered to the world hundreds of years before and had nothing to do with it, and for that matter neither did most of that House as they were...I digress. 

If I am hearing you correctly then only the NOT ever Gods people can be a part of the assembling of Christians.  None of those Christ came for, His own scattered sheep may.  

All 12 tribes make up Israel.  
Jews come from the tribe of Judah (or those living in there may be also called Jews)   That leaves 12 others who weren't around to reject.   

So it wasn't 'Israel' who persecuted the church at all.  And IT WASN'T really even the Jews of house of JUDAH. 

It was those CLAIMING TO BE JEWS, who do lie,  WHO WERE NOT,  but are of the synagogue of Satan, vipers (serpent) liars, of their father the devil....  

The beginnings of the church WAS made up of ALL JEWS.  Either those Jews (by birth), who 'through faith' no matter who their earthly daddy under the law was or those Gentiles (Jews by where they lived)  who 'through faith' no matter who their daddy not under the law was.  

Whomsoever.  The church is made up of EVERYONE.  You do understand the House of Israel being scattered to the world and the timing of it all, right?  Do you understand that to THIS DAY (not knowing who they really are descended from) they consider themselves Gentile converts to Christianity?  Let me ask you if 'the sands of the seas and the dust of the earth and the stars of the sky describe GODS BLESSING on this one family AND NO OTHER, then who would the vast majority of the Christians come from?  NOT GENTILES.  Since Christians are the biggest 'religion' how is that possible it is made up of those not of the blood line?  

Peter was an apostle to?  while Paul was an apostle to?  Who is not supposed to boast against...lest they be cut off also?  

Christ came to gather the scattered, of whom He would not lose ONE.  Don't you think that they would be most inclined to come to faith just naturally?  

FAITH comes by hearing and hearing by the words of God.  It is only upon FAITH that you receive the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit doesn't come upon those who have NOT heard or believed the words of God.  So the Holy Spirit is not raising up the church at all.  

I'll stop here to  see where we are
Again, capitol letters are not yelling here.    d

Thank you for your reply. My CAPITALS are also not shouting. They are just for emphasis. I've got 10 minutes so I'll just answer your first objection. There are three proofs that the ten northern tribes rejected Christ.

(1) They still do so today. From New York to Beijing the tribes scattered there reject Christ with vehemence. In Israel itself live an estimated 40% of all Jews. Preaching the gospel there is not officially allowed.

(2) At Pentecost of Christ's time the population of Jerusalem swelled to an estimated 1 million for the Feast of Weeks. Let us half that to be sure. Let's say Jerusalem had 500,000 on that first Pentecost when the gospel was preached. Let's say that of the 500,000 150,000 were adults. Three thousand embraced Christ. That is - 2%. Ninety-eight percent refused the gospel.

(3) The ten northern tribes were defeated and deported because Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 called for it as part of the Covenant. Our Lord Jesus who "knew men" (Jn.2:25), said that Judah had refused Him BECAUSE they refused Moses (Lk.16:31).

The ten northern tribes refused, and do refuse Jesus though they be scattered through all the earth.

More later.

God bless

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The ten northern tribes refused, and do refuse Jesus though they be scattered through all the earth.

How could they when they weren't even around.  There were no cell phones.  They were off populating the world.  

They disobeyed UNDER THE LAW.  Do you really believe that upon hearing the 'good news' they said NO WAY.  

ok

Lets say you are correct.  Who are they and what are they doing now?  Do they have any beliefs?  

If there are 2 billion Gentile believers then there would have to be at least 6 billion 'house of Israel' non believers of which Christ will not lose one.  When will they be gathered?  

Then all these NON believers and so we must assume know NOTHING of the words of God are then all at once going to be reigning and ruling with Christ for 1000 years as priests?  HOW does that work?

You know things sound so good on paper but putting them into practice doesn't make much sense.  WHAT kind of a plan is that?  


BUT PLEASE, DON'T ANSWER ANY OF THESE UNTIL AFTER YOU HAVE FINISHED WITH THE QUESTIONS FROM THE FIRST PAGE.  

And thank you SO VERY MUCH for using capitol letters for emphasis.  I think it is just a ploy of the devil to keep us quiet.    Talk to you soon   D  (I could use the break been a busy morning, after noon)


 

[AdHoc]

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

How could they when they weren't even around.  There were no cell phones.  They were off populating the world.  

They disobeyed UNDER THE LAW.  Do you really believe that upon hearing the 'good news' they said NO WAY.  

ok

Lets say you are correct.  Who are they and what are they doing now?  Do they have any beliefs?  

If there are 2 billion Gentile believers then there would have to be at least 6 billion 'house of Israel' non believers of which Christ will not lose one.  When will they be gathered?  

Then all these NON believers and so we must assume know NOTHING of the words of God are then all at once going to be reigning and ruling with Christ for 1000 years as priests?  HOW does that work?

You know things sound so good on paper but putting them into practice doesn't make much sense.  WHAT kind of a plan is that?  


BUT PLEASE, DON'T ANSWER ANY OF THESE UNTIL AFTER YOU HAVE FINISHED WITH THE QUESTIONS FROM THE FIRST PAGE.  

And thank you SO VERY MUCH for using capitol letters for emphasis.  I think it is just a ploy of the devil to keep us quiet.    Talk to you soon   D  (I could use the break been a busy morning, after noon)


 

Hi and good morning. I have thought much about our exchange. I've come to the conclusion that instead of answering you point for point, which tends to lead us down side-roads, let me put forth my understanding, with scriptures, of Israel's future. But first, let me define the word "saved" because in many Christian's vocabulary, it has only one meaning. That is, believe in Jesus and be saved from hell. But this is not the case in the Bible. We have to define any word, and especially "saved", by its context. Let us take Ham, Noah's son. Ham was "saved" from death by the Ark. But Ham was not saved from the curse that God placed upon him for despising his origin - his father, and in so doing, despised God. Ananias and Saphira were saved by the blood of Christ from eternal death, but not saved from temporal death. And so it is with Israel. Their "salvation" is different to the Christian concept.

Israel is God's chosen people among all NATIONS. What made them different was that the very God of the universe dwelt WITH them. For this privilege they receive two things. (i) A Land with secure borders in which is a City and House for God to dwell - Jerusalem. (ii) A set of Laws that would give God His honor, mean his honor and the Land its honor. The Land was a result of a Covenant of Promise, and their continued stay in the Land was governed by a Covenant of this Law. If they broke the Law, and thus the Covenant of Law, they would be ejected from the Land and dispersed among the Nations. After this threat in Deuteronomy Chapter 28, Deuteronomy Chapter 30 starts with a sad note. It assumes that Israel will be dispersed among the Nations. But together with this sad note, Moses the prophet is given a way out - a way of restoration. It is this; If Israel turn back to the Law with their whole heart, God will bring them back to their Land in peace.

But the fallen man is helpless to keep God's Law (says Romans 7), and so Israel would, in normal circumstances, remain dispersed among the nations forever. But Moses the prophet, in Deuteronomy 18:18, promises them a Messiah. And Zacharias, in Luke Chapter 1, declares that this Messiah is come. Note the language and the use of the word "saved".

           67       And Zacharias his father was filled with the Holy Spirit, and did prophesy, saying,
           68       ‘Blessed is the Lord, the God of Israel, Because He did look upon, And wrought redemption for His people,
           69       And did raise an horn of salvation to us, In the house of David His servant,
           70       As He spake by the mouth of His holy prophets, Which have been from the age;
           71       Salvation from our enemies, And out of the hand of all hating us,
           72       To do kindness with our fathers, And to be mindful of His holy covenant,
           73       An oath that He sware to Abraham our father,
           74       To give to us, without fear, Out of the hand of our enemies having been delivered,
           75       To serve Him, in holiness and righteousness Before Him, all the days of our life.
           76       And thou, child, Prophet of the Highest Shalt thou be called; For thou shalt go before the face of the Lord, To prepare His ways.
           77       To give knowledge of salvation to His people In remission of their sins,
           78       Through the tender mercies of our God, In which the rising from on high did look upon us,
           79       To give light to those sitting in darkness and death-shade, To guide our feet to a way of peace.’

It is at once clear that the Holy Spirit declares "redemption" and "salvation" as something different to what Christians are told. In verse 68 "His People" is Israel. The Church was not revealed to the prophets of old. This is confirmed by the "horn of salvation" coming from "David's House(hold)". David is king of Israel, not any other nation. The basis of this "redemption" and "salvation" is NOT FAITH. It is because God made a Covenant with Abraham (v.72-73). And Israel can only serve God if they have Land surrounding Jerusalem to raise up tithes, bring the tithes to a House in which God lives, and feast and rejoice with God. And all this in peace and safety from surrounding enemies. This Messiah would put away sins because of MERCY.

Now we jump to Romans. Romans builds a case that every man is dead in sins and in danger of judgment. In Chapter 6 the only way to overcome sin is to partake of Christ's death. But the Jew would say; "we have the Law"! So Paul shows that the Law, good, spiritual and God-given cannot help the Jew because of the "LAW of sin and death" dwelling IN THEM. Then, in Chapter 8, the way out of this is given. To receive Christ's Spirit and become children of God. But the reader of Romans Chapters 1-8 knows that Messiah would be rejected by Israel. This puts God in bad light. He has made promises to Israel, but because of their sins and their refusal to believe in Messiah, He must chastise them by keeping them dispersed among the nations. God's very honor is at stake because of HIS PROMISES to Abraham. What is the solution???

The answer is that Christ died not only for the sin (singular) of the Church, but the sin of "the whole world" (Jn.1:29). And, Christ died, not only for the sins (plural) of the Church, but the sins of "the whole world" (1st Jn.2:2). That gives God the JUDICIAL right to forgive any man's sin and sins. But God sets a CONDITION for putting away sins. That is; FAITH IN JESUS. And Israel will REFUSE FAITH IN JESUS. So what hope is there for Israel??? The answer is - THE COVENANT!!! Israel has a Covenant and the Nations do not. A member of the Nations MUST BELIEVE IN JESUS to have sins removed, but Israel can receive MERCY because of the Covenant with Abraham. But this MERCY does not include rebirth and eternal life. It includes what Zacharias prophesied AND what God promised Abraham - THAT GOD WOULD GIVE THEM A LAND AND BE WITH THEM! That is Israel's salvation! Paul dedicates THREE CHAPTERS (Romans 9 - 11) to show that God can and will honor His Covenant with Israel THOUGH THEY REMAIN IN UNBELIEF. He says; "I will have mercy on whom I will"! How??? BECAUSE JESUS FULFILLED THE JUDICIAL REQUIREMENT BY HIS DEATH FOR ALL SINS.

Thus, we have (1) The Church who DID believe and are saved and given eternal life, (ii) Israel who did NOT believe and are restored to their Land in peace and God's blessing, and (iii) the Nations who did NOT believe and are in danger of the Lake of Fire. That is;

THREE SEPARATE ENTITIES, EACH WITH A DIFFERENT FUTURE.

 

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

THREE SEPARATE ENTITIES, EACH WITH A DIFFERENT FUTURE

Go morning AD,

I have been doing a lot of thinking also and I have taken more time than normal here trying to keep it short and....well we'll see.  
 

 

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Let us take Ham, Noah's son. Ham was "saved" from death by the Ark. But Ham was not saved from the curse that God placed upon him for despising his origin - his father, and in so doing, despised God. Ananias and Saphira were saved by the blood of Christ from eternal death, but not saved from temporal death. And so it is with Israel. Their "salvation" is different to the Christian concept.

WHO cursed Ham?  

Genesis 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. 25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
He didn't pray or ask, "he said"  so we have to ask ourselves what does that even mean in terms of truth that is.  


IS Israels Salvation Different AT ALL?  or is that just what is taught but not what is written.  WHO divided the words of God that way?  Were you lead by the Holy Spirit in the words of God?  If so, then to tell me when this took place (Chapter and verse) won't be hard.  I look forward to  this information.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:  14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?  16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.  17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;  18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.  19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.  20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.  22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.  24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?  25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Do you think a 'BOAST' might be 'We are not a part of you, we are our own entity'  you are under a different covenant?  

Even if there were only but ONE SOUL of the House of Israel that CAME TO FAITH, ALL the gentiles would still be GRAFTED INTO that same plant and root.  NOT MADE UNTO THEIR OWN ENTITY.  Not given their own promises, plans, futures but partakers of that found sheep.  Please correct me if wrong. 

God talks about the two sticks being made one.  Where IS 'the church'?  
I can tell you FOR SURE AND WITHOUT RESERVATION IT IS WRITTEN THAT  'the church' is grafted into the House of Israel.  That is where it started and that is where it has remained and that is where it ends up and it is a partaker of THOSE covenants and promises and everything else.  So I believe myself (and maybe all by myself I do acknowledge)

Where is it written the two were separated?   When were they taken apart?   Please please chapter and verse.  I would HATE to be teaching falsely.  It is not only a waste of time but that is a kind of trouble I am looking really really hard to avoid.  

The fulness of the Gentiles, when did that happen?  I THINK (don't know) once the scattered of the tribes forgot who they were, there was no longer a difference between them, and I think it had started to happen before Jesus arrived. It certainly didn't take more than a generation to get the word out.  The separation as to salvation being found in the 'seed' had been completed on the cross.   The words of God were preached to whomsoever would and whomsoever consisted of 'unknown to themselves House of Israel and Gentiles ALIKE. (Nothing to do with the trodding down of....) 

(not saying there will never be any other meaning in that verse or that is all it will ever give us. In this context that is all it may say but somewhere on down the line, the Holy Spirit leads us here for 'here a little, there a little'. If we were reading it by mans laws IT would only be able to fit the one truth?  BUT God doesn't always work that way because Iit just may be the answer to something else yet not given.  How I tell?  because it will remain of a TRUTH here and it will be of a TRUTH there AND in no way do either of them end up contradicting each other or any thing else written.  Something man could never do but GOD DOES ...I digress)



Jesus said

Matthew 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Ask yourself, what are the chances that they are not immediately being found?  And NOT even for the next 2000 years?  WHAT would be the point of that?  Would God not want them to live?  The House of Judah or the ones who still don't believe in Christ could be enough of HIS PEOPLE to remain blind,  don't you think? 
If not 'Israel' is NOT of the 'church' , are they then the Atheist's of today? 

 Do all those generations of souls HAVE NO WORKS to follow them because their great x's 10 grandfather was of Isaac?  

Which brings us to the question of WHO are to be the priests for the millennium?  Those who have never been given any knowledge or those who will NOT be tested of their knowledge and  those who never took Christ as their Saviour till the very end. 
 THERE are the '3 Divisions'.
NOT LOOKING so GOOD FOR THE HOME TEAM.  

These are SOME of the things that make no sense to those of us who learned Gods words without being 'schooled'.  What outline or dividing by who from when and when and whos words describes...whatever that whole thing is about.  It's like everyone is trying to make Gods words fit into mans thoughts and ways instead of just letting Gods words tell the story with the Holy Spirits leading.  ALL that precious time spent learning about other men...what a waste.  EVERY MANMADE RULE is at odds with Gods words, IMO.  Gods words are constantly growing.  Can they live and grow with mans parameters put upon them. UH, I don't know how to say what I am trying to say.  

Gods words are to be precept on precept verse by verse here a little there a little and UNTIL one has learned them that way (took me a couple of times that way but then I started to really live)  We are to 'Come out of bondage.  His yoke is light.  He sets us free.  These are truth. 


Isaiah 28:5 In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,

Isaiah 28:6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.

Isaiah 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

Makes me ask WHOS CUP are they drinking out of.  

Isaiah 28:8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Is this a command?  Is this being followed by anyone today?  

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.



When first beginning to spread the Gospel, there were no 'rules', no schools and they were bringing many many people to the Lord. Sure would have been great to have been that first generation and Yes, even in the midst of those who had ACTUALLY rejected Christ.  Now those may seem like small numbers but if you look at being under Roman control, and the synagogue leaders, and all the rest I think it was an awesome start against all odds.  

These are some of the things I think all these 'laws' or whatever they are called,  DO to Gods words, and yes, that is just in my humble opinion.  You will have to forgive me if it seems off topic but I KEEP running into the same thing over and over and I came to these forums to build and I keep getting hit with the same problem and words and concepts and NO ONE CAN USE GODS WORDS TO SAY WHAT THEY MEAN or say what they mean with Gods words.  It's always WHAT HE MEANT not what He wrote.  To me, that is not looking for truth or Gods plan but trying to figure out who believes what parts of mans words and what man came closest to getting it right.  It's like common sense has flown the coop and the ACTUAL Plan of God isn't even considered anymore..IDK.  Ask anyone to put Gods Plan down in order and though they can pick apart someone elses here and there, won't set anything down themselves.  Sorry, truly I am.  I am just so sad this morning and rambling here and there and I am just going to leave it anyway.  The rest will be filled with Scripture you have read a million times and have been told what it says. But what if when you get in front of God He asks you to give it to Him in HIS words only, how will you do?   I will tell you that for me that is when something happens. If I can't do that then I am on the wrong path. 

Who came out of Zion?  Who turned away the ungodliness from the lost sheep?  

Who said it would have no effect for over 2000 years?  

I think that when many read the NT today they don't take into account how Matt and Mark were written proclaiming arrival of King and kingdom and Luke and John were them being rejected.  I don't think many understand the difference between the elect and all the rest and so lots of confusion comes about trying to place what where but when we KEEP Gods plans at the forefront it is all made so much simpler.  What ever Gods plans, WE can not make any distinctions between any one other than those who have accepted the Lord and Saviour and those who haven't whether they be Gentile or Israel BECAUSE WE don't know who is who.  We can THINK all we want but we are not able to say YOU ARE A GENTILE and YOU ARE of ISRAEL.  There is only ONE tribe who really knows who they are and that is the House of Judah.  And they don't believe in Christ.  THAT we can know.  

Let's say you were of the House of Israel and I was a Gentile, BOTH become Christians.  IF the gospel was different for each of us then you would study one way and me another.  Here comes the 'pre trib' (which is really what it's all about isn't it?  Is there any other reason why we are not the same?  yyou know, one body one spirit tightly knit together making one man)  Satan gonna be here in 10 days.  Now you, who have put on the gospel armor to STAY, stand, endure to the end, watch, be tested, Stand up for the words of God are whisked away and me who did not prepare at all is standing here in a wedding dress when there is a battle coming.  I have no extra oil (why would I, wasn't going to need it was I) none of the things I really need.  I was a gentile.  I didn't need to put on armor.  I  didn't have to know any of that stuff, i was a part of the church.  I wasn't even going to go through judgment.  All i needed was faith.  The hard stuff was for everyone else of every generation.

My two sense worth...d


 

Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and tTAKEN

Isaiah 28:14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

Isaiah 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves
Eze 13?  Dan 9?  


Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give..

Romans 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

Romans 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

Romans 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.