Are these 2300 or 1150 days in Daniel 8:14

[adamjedgar]

Hi guys,

I have been doing a lot of research lately on the book of Daniel in particular chapters 2, 7 and 8.

 

Its a very controversial topic it seems

 

Daniel 2 is important i believe because it sets the theme of the entire book of daniel...ie the great statue is in reality all about the future from the time of Daniel until the time of the end (when the stone cut without hands hits the statute on the feet and completely demolishes it...i believe this will be fulfilled at the second coming of Christ) 

My belief is that Daniel 2 links with Daniel 7 because in chapter 7 we see that whilst the statue in chapter 2 appears royal, grand and refined, in truth those kingdoms represented by it act as beasts in their behaviour towards the wishes of God and his people and this is illustrated by the use of beasts instead of a statute of refined royalty.

I also see a link between daniel 7 and 8 because of:

1. the overriding theme set forth in chapter 2 - this book is about future kingdoms.

2. The little horn is mentioned and this links with Revelation 13

3. clearly these two animals are conquering world powers 

Over the last few months i have read a number of posts on various forums about this topic...one very popular theory is that Daniel 8 is fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes. I think that from my research thus far it is pretty clear that this theory is dead in the water...he was not a particularly successful conquerer nor was he a significant world power at the time.

For example, he was humiliated by the Romans in Egypt when the local Roman Governor drew a circle around him in the sand and gave him an ultimatum...he must make up his mind on returning home with his army before he could leave the circle...thus Antiochus left behind his Egyptian campaign with his tail between his legs at the hands of the Romans (who were very clearly a far more dominant world power at this time)...hardly the spoils of war from a great conqueror!

Another part of this popular Antiochus theory requires one to attempt to even link him with Daniel 8:14 by changing the interpretation of the 2300 day prophecy timeline. The proponents of this theory state that 2300 days is actually 2300 sacrificial days and that as the tradition contained 2 sacrifices per day (one in the morning and one in the evening), then in fact its only 1150 days.

I am interested in this last part from a traditional Jewish point of view...does the Jewish tradition read Daniel 8:14 as being 2300 days or 1150 days?

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by adamjedgar
add missing content

[George]

Shalom adamjedgar,

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[Omegaman 3.0]

Adam, this is the welcome section, designed for you to introduce yourself to others, and for them to welcome you to our community, Welcome, by the way.

Topics like this one (Daniel) belong it other topical section. I moved this one to Prophecy, but in the future, pleast try to keep your posts in forum areas to which your post relates. Thanks ahead of time for your cooperation!

[FortifiedbyFaith]

Welcome Adam ?

Mind blowing as this seems there are some that think the 2300 days actually ended in November this year. The period began with the dedication of the Satyr in Detroit in July of 2015. I tend to think there is some validity to the timeline given that supports this and not solely based on this one persons understanding of scripture and events. Leeland has been tracking all this and traveling in the Africa/Middle East regions for over 7 years now. What he has been led to by the Holy Spirit and the accuracy of the things he pointed to that actually happened has been amazing. You can learn more here (https://www.youtube.com/c/LeelandJones/community) as it is too complex for me to even give an abbreviated version of it other than relay events occurring during this period - the celestial event of the “Lady cloaked in the sun” of Sept. 23, 2017, the declaration of Netanyahu’s intent to pursue war on Iran, and culminated on Nov. 10th calendar date, but this is tied to the announcement on the 8th of the Sanhedrin procuring oil by which to anoint the messiah and the temple AND take the opportunity to announce that the nations of the world especially christian nations should be prepared to pledge support of the Noahide Laws. This was a draw the line in the sand moment. The Sanhedrin says a choice must be made. https://www.israel365news.com/201272/sanhedrin-begins-to-prepare-oil-to-anoint-king-messiah-kohen-gadol/

We are living in the last generation. HE comes soon.
 

Edited November 16, 2021 by FortifiedbyFaith

[adamjedgar]

9 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Adam, this is the welcome section, designed for you to introduce yourself to others, and for them to welcome you to our community, Welcome, by the way.

Topics like this one (Daniel) belong it other topical section. I moved this one to Prophecy, but in the future, pleast try to keep your posts in forum areas to which your post relates. Thanks ahead of time for your cooperation!

Hi and thank you for the information.

 

For some reason newbies are not able to post anywhere else but here in the welcome section. I have already introduced myself a few days ago however was still unable to post anywhere else.

 

My next assumption after reading the information contained at the top of this thread and trying to fill in the blanks just a little bit, is that i must first post here, a moderator will look at it, then move it to the correct location and enable my ability to post in the other forums?

 

kind regards

Adam

[adamjedgar]

I note the mention of the 70 week prophecy...and would like to go slightly offtrack onto that pathway for a bit. (i think its relevant)

 

I note that when we read Daniel 9:26-27…

 

25Know and understand this: From the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah,g the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of distress.

26Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed. 27And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.”

 

So that ells me that we have 69 weeks from the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the coming of the Messiah.

 

Now my understanding is that Messiah is an Old testament term used to denote the first coming of a saviour as prophesied by Isaiah in Chapter 53...

3He was despised and rejected by men,

a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief.

Like one from whom men hide their faces,

He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.

4Surely He took on our infirmities

and carried our sorrows;b

yet we considered Him stricken by God,

struck down and afflicted.

5But He was pierced for our transgressions,

He was crushed for our iniquities;

the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,

and by His stripes we are healed.c

6We all like sheep have gone astray,d

each one has turned to his own way;

and the LORD has laid upon Him

the iniquity of us all.

7He was oppressed and afflicted,

yet He did not open His mouth.

He was led like a lamb to the slaughter,

and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,

so He did not open His mouth.

8By oppression and judgment He was taken away,

and who can recount His descendants?

For He was cut off from the land of the living;e

He was stricken for the transgression of My people.

 

So this tells me that the prophecy in Daniel relates to that of Isaiah 53 and the coming Messiah. If so, could we not work backwards from Jesus Crucifixion to determine if this prophecy in Daniel 9 is fullfilled with Jesus ministry, crucifixion and the stoning of Stephen?

 

for example,

1. Jesus ministry was about 3.5 years (which is what i believe history demonstrates)

2. Stephen was stoned exactly 3.5 years after the crucifixion (another historical fact i believe)

 

So from the start of the Jesus ministry until the stoning of Stephen was 7 years!

 

If we then consider the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem...

 

What do restore and rebuild actually mean?

 

So when we consider the actual time period statement given for the prophecy in Daniel 9:25

25Know and understand this: From the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah,g the Prince, 

 

 I do not see  that there is any point to use the same term twice in a single statement...so these words (restore and rebuild) must represent 2 things!

 

one theory i have heard is the following

restored = a decree to self govern (appoint magistrates and other leadership positions to self govern)

rebuild = the physical process of rebuilding the city destroyed by the Babylonians many years before

 

thoughts?

[adamjedgar]

Does traditional Judaism historically agree that the average age for a priest to be ordained was about the age of 30 years?

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Welcome to the forum. 

I agree with you that putting Antiochus into the mix of trying to understand the end times,  clouds the issue to no end.   Besides that I believe the correct understanding comes from recognizing that "70 years of desolation of Jerusalem" was not completed when Cyrus issued his decree to allow the captives to return and to return the vessels of the house of the Lord.   I believe the desolation of Jerusalem began sometime in the 3rd year of Jehoiakim (see Daniel 1:1-2) which began in the early spring of 605 BC (and lasted until 604BC).  And the desolation ended in the first year of Cyrus,  probably early 538 BC.  This means that the desolation ended IN the 67rh year of the  Jeremiah's 70 prophesied years.  Something on the order of a bit more than 3 years are unfulfilled.   I believe that these unfulfilled times will be completed during the last portion of the 70th week.  Which brings me to how the 2300 "evenings and mornings" fit into the sum of all things.   

I believe the 70th week will be started with the offering again of [daily]  sacrifices, by a sanctioned high priest and altar that will lead to the rebuilding of the temple.   I believe the temple be completed and subsequently destroyed a short time later to fulfill the uncompleted 70 years of desolation.

I believe that Daniel 8 confirms that the little horn is the one ordained by God to bring this about.   I believe the 2300 days corresponds to the rise of the little horn and culminates with the desolation of "his sanctuary ".  I believe that Daniel 8:14 reiterates what is stated in verses 9-13:

Dan 8:9-13 KJV ⁹ And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. ¹⁰ And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. ¹¹ Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. ¹² And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. ¹³ Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Dan 8:14 KJV And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

So,  if verse 14 is reiterating verses 9-13, the vision begins with the rising (coming forth) of the little horn and culminates with "giving the sanctuary AND the host to be trodden under foot".    But how does the culmination [of being trodden under foot] correlate with the "cleansing of the sanctuary"?  I think the key word is "cleansed".  I think to interpret that to mean clean is a mistake in understanding.   The difference comes in understanding the similarity between the words "cleansed" and "cleaned".   Look what happens when we use the word cleaned in place of cleansed. 

Dan 8:14 KJV And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be CLEANED.

What the word "cleaned" means is the initiation of the cleansing process... the beginning of cleaning.   Why do I think this?  because John uses this same idea to say that the sanctuary shall be trodden under foot for 42 months: 

Rev 11:2 KJV But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The 2300 days culminates,  unquestionably with sanctuary and hosted being cleaned/ cleansed... but not [yet] clean!  No matter how you slice 2300 days as being 2300 or 1150 days,  neither way resembles 42 months.   But in fact "1150 days" is essentially 39 months,  less one day.   

Now looking again,  we see that the "2300 days" has a singular point of origin,  but it might be possessive of a dual point of ending, with the "sanctuary AND host" being cleansed.   It could possibly mean that it truly is 2300 days long,  but is not completed until both parts have been "cleansed".  This is possible,  but I meditated on this for a long time until I looked at how verse 13 ends where it says and seen how this mirrors the combined effects of verses 11 and 12.    In verse 11 it says that "a host was given".  And in verse 12 it says that "the place of his sanctuary was cast down".    To me,  verse 13 is reiterating the combined effects of verses 11 & 12 by saying,  "... TO GIVE both the ghost and the sanctuary to be trodden under foot".   The word "give" has the meaning of to designate,  appoint,  or ordain to a purpose.   Thus,  the 2300 days refers to the appointed purpose of being trodden under foot... the host and the sanctuary.   So I essentially arrived at,  that the little horn is the one who fulfills the appointed purpose of the desolation of both the sanctuary and its hosts,  the priests!... scattering them by God pouring his wrath upon them.   Without a Temple,  the duties of the priesthood are vacated.   Without priests,  there are no sacrifices to be made... the sacrifices cease in any temple that there might still be standing.   What I thus concluded is that the 2300 days end when the sacrifices (and the office of the priesthood)  cease.   This occurs in the middle time of great tribulation,  equated to the "abomination of desolation".  Thus,  the 2300 days could only fit within the framework of the 1st three and one half years of the 70th week.  This would mean that the 2300 evenings and mornings could only be satisfied as 1150 days,  ala 39 months.   

This would translate into the rising of the little horn taking place about 4 months after the start of the 70th week.  But I believe the uprooting of the 3 horns will not occur until near the end of the 2300 days.   This is what will leave the world in darkness of understanding,  until its too late to do anything about it.  It will happen at the last hour,  most likely it happens the previous day or night before the attack on Jerusalem... sudden destruction! 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

The Pup, I agree, that Antiochus and in fact, this entire chapter 8 is history to us now and has no bearing on end times or our future. In other words, the 2300 number is history and no one should try and figure out how it fits into Revelation.

[WilliamL]

On 11/15/2021 at 2:30 PM, adamjedgar said:

Over the last few months i have read a number of posts on various forums about this topic...one very popular theory is that Daniel 8 is fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes. I think that from my research thus far it is pretty clear that this theory is dead in the water.

Hardly. When you get the time, I recommend you read my two blogs on Daniel 8, connections here:

39. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 2: Daniel 8ʼs Original Vision of “the Pesha/Rebellion” of the Jews

Explains why Danielʼs original vision of the pesha/rebellion/apostasy of the Jewish priesthood and people under Antiochus Epiphanes must be examined next, in order to set the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 in its proper context.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1575-daniel-924-27-examined-part-2-daniel-8ʼs-original-vision-of-“the-pesharebellion”-of-the-jews/

40. Part 2 Conclusion

Concludes the review of Daniel 8 by pointing out some critical English-text mistranslations that have led many people to misunderstand key passages of the prophecy.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1576-part-2-conclusion/

[adamjedgar]

hmmm

Edited November 20, 2021 by adamjedgar