Discussion on the Bible

[Bread_of_Life]

4. I don't know, I've never looked into it (I mean, I know who Hippocrates was meant to be, and that the Hippocratic oath is named after him, but I've never looked into the evidence for his existence). If someone were to present the evidence to me, I'd be happy to say. Unfortunately, lacking the evidence, I obviously can't tell you.

Sorry!

[Joy in the Journey]

Ok- how abourt Charles Darwin then ? I can only assume you've heard of him. How do you know he existed ( Nik, I'm not trying to trap you- I promise ).

Be blessed,

Tim

[Bread_of_Life]

I thought you'd pick Charles Darwin next. Yes, he did exist. I have:

- his own books, essays etc.

- pictures of Darwin by contemporary artists

- debates in the house of commons referring to his theory

- family interviews and writings

- descendants

- news articles and press clippings

- original accounts of hundreds of people who claim independently to have met him

- official documents such as memberships, birth, marriage and death certificates, census records

- log books of the voyage of the beagle

- speeches written by and about Darwin from many different contemporary people

- his house, still intact with memorabilia

- his fossil finds and scientific papers

etc. etc. and of course, I have no reason for thinking anyone might have invented him, nor that they would have gotten away with doing so at the time, in the country he was in.

I'm pretty sure he existed.

[Joy in the Journey]

- his own books, essays etc.

- pictures of Darwin by contemporary artists

- debates in the house of commons referring to his theory

- family interviews and writings

- descendants

- news articles and press clippings

- original accounts of hundreds of people who claim independently to have met him

- official documents such as memberships, birth, marriage and death certificates, census records

- log books of the voyage of the beagle

- speeches written by and about Darwin from many different contemporary people

- his house, still intact with memorabilia

- his fossil finds and scientific papers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So do you admit that you put faith in all these things ( listed above ) regardless of the fact that you can't prove he truly existed ( you never actually shook his hand- right ? )

Tim

[Bread_of_Life]

No, all of the things I listed are called "evidence". There is no faith involved.

However, even with this evidence, I can't be certain he existed - I can only be sure enough that it would be perverse not to give the assent of my mind to the idea that he did exist. In other words, my belief is tentative:

- I'm open to evidence that he didn't exist

- I'm sure enough he did to consider is a fact (I would consider it perverse to believe he didn't exist)

- I'm not 100% sure

EVEN if I'd met the guy and shook his hand, I wouldn't be 100% sure he existed. I would of course be surer than I am now, but it would still be possible that it'd been a hallucination - or that I was created 2 seconds ago with the memory of meeting him intact.

In other words, I am happy to admit that almost all my beliefs about the outside world and history are tentative, and not 100%. I'm am sure enough that Darwin existed that I would call it a fact (meaning that it would be perverse not to give the tentative assent of the mind to it), but not 100% sure.

In fact, there are very few things I can be 100% certain of, I could count them on the fingers of one hand.

So what have we learnt about my belief in Darwin so far:

- The belief is tentative and open to disproof

- I'm not 100% sure he existed

- I base my tentative belief on evidence

- I believe his existence to be a "fact"

- I define a "fact" as "something that it would be perverse not to give the tentative assent of the mind to"

[Bread_of_Life]

Mainly because I try very hard to be 100% consistant in my beliefs, and therefore since Joy is prodding for inconsistancy between one belief and another, he won't find it.

[mrs]

Mainly because I try very hard to be 100% consistant in my beliefs, and therefore since Joy is prodding for inconsistancy between one belief and another, he won't find it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe you are genuine in your unbelief.You don't believe in the Bible because you don't see any evidence to do so.To me the evidence for God is all around us but I know you don't see it that way.So I will just pray that God will reveal Himself to you and then you will have no doubts.

[Bread_of_Life]

Smiles,

I pray for that too, I won't have to spend so long on bulletin boards that way

Kidding. Seriously though, I do hope it happens!

Nik

[Joy in the Journey]

Mainly because I try very hard to be 100% consistant in my beliefs, and therefore since Joy is prodding for inconsistancy between one belief and another, he won't find it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess it's pointless to go on here Nik. I tried to be honest and up front with you and perhaps have a discussion; however since it's obvious you've already drawn conclusions as to my intent, anything we discuss will be pointless since you have a preconceived notion about this conversation. I'm so sorry it didn't work out. Thanks for the initiative however- I do appreciate that.

God bless,

Tim

[Bread_of_Life]

Tim!

Cmon mate, don't be like that, I'm not trying to prejudge you (although I reckon Foglight is )

Seriously, you seem a reasonable person, and they're few and far between - I wasn't trying to have a dig at you, seriously.

It's just that I have had similar discussions in the past, and it usually turns out that the point is about how everyone has faith, and it's just that they're holding the bible up to a higher standard of evidence than any other historical event. But that doesn't mean I'm unhappy to continue, you're polite and you answer my actual points - so it's all good. Maybe you have something to say that noone else has said to me, a slant on it I've never heard, I'd really like to continue!

Obviously if you really really don't, then fair dos, but I did answer your points, and it seems fair that we continue don't you think?

Nik