covenant Leviticus 16:16 debuncts the theory that the Old Covenant is different to the New Covenant. They are identical, its the individual who makes the promise to keep it that is different.

[adamjedgar]

Proponents of the New Covenant doing away with the Old one state that the 10 commandments are no longer relevant to salvation. However, note something really interesting about the location of the Sanctuary in the Israelite camp that i think completely debuncts that entire theory...the tabernacle was located in the midst of their iniquities...in the heart of the camp of israelites!

Leviticus 16:16
New International Version
In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. He is to do the same for the tent of meeting, which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
English Standard Version
Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
King James Bible
And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
One cannot say that the Sanctuary is only relevant to the Israelites, because:

Hebrews 4:14
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God

So in order for the saved to follow Jesus through the heavens, we must enter his rest...just like the children of Israel needed to do in order to enter Canaan (the promised land). Ascending into Heaven at the second coming of Jesus is our pathway to the promised land...the covenant that God made with Abraham is also relevant to us right through to the end of time...It is plainly obvious that the covenant God gave to Abraham did not end at the cross...the israelites had already enterred the promised land hundreds of years before the incarnation of Jesus...that is not what it was about. The true covenant dates back to that given to Adam and Eve...it was Jesus sacrifice on the cross. It has always been about salvation, restoring us to the glorious state before the fall of Adam and Eve. That is what entering Gods rest is all about!

 
Hebrews 4:1
1Therefore, while the promise of entering His rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be deemed to have fallen short of it.

The Israelites did not believe and did not obey Gods commandments...they grumbled as had been the case since they left Egypt. As a consequence, the were refused entry into Gods rest until the transgressing generation had all died out...they did not enter Gods rest, the promised land. The parallel of the Israelite promised land in Christian terms is the new heaven and new earth. Unless we have faith AND follow Gods commands, we cannot enter that rest.

 
Hebrews 4: 11
11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience.

Revelation 14:12 I think reinforces the statement in Hebrews:

12Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

So in answer to the question, does it mean I cannot be saved if I do not follow all of the commandments of God (including the Sabbath), my answer would be… unless all Christians follow the words of Jesus in the pericope adulterae, then no one cannot be saved.

John Chapter 8
3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

So in reading Jesus response to the adulterous women, there were 2 statements  he made in answer to the Pharisees question…conditions by which she could avoid further condemnation at the hands of the law. These were:

1.    Only one who is without sin can condemn (so condemnation is Gods right however, it is most certainly applicable to sinners)
2.    Go and sin no more

 
So how do we define what sin is? 

I John3:4
4Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness as well. Indeed, sin is lawlessness.
Psalm 38:1
New Living Translation
Sin whispers to the wicked, deep within their hearts. They have no fear of God at all.

So sin is found deep within the heart and it is in direct conflict with the covenant (the law of God) that was always in the midst of their iniquities…in the heart/middle of the camp of the Israelites.

Jeremiah in chapter 31prophesied concerning the new covenant:

31Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32It will not be like the covenant
I made with their fathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of the land of Egypt—
a covenant they broke,
though I was a husband to them,g”
declares the LORD.
33“But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the LORD.
I will put My law in their minds
and inscribe it on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
and they will be My people.
34No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother,
saying, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know Me,
from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD.
For I will forgive their iniquities
and will remember their sins no more.”
 

Now i recognise that we are all judged according to our conscience, however, for those who would believe that intentionally not keeping ALL of the commandments of God (including the 4th instead choosing to worship on Sunday) may still go to heaven, i would argue no you cannot! Jesus rightousness did not apply to those israelites who did not obey Gods commands, Sauls crown was given to another and his soul lost because he did not obey Gods commandments...and since the apostle John tells us in the book of Revelation that the Saints are those who fulfill 2 requirements:

1. keep the commandments of God and

2. have the faith of Jesus

without BOTH of the above, we are also lost just like king Saul.

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by adamjedgar

[WilliamL]

8 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

the apostle John tells us in the book of Revelation that the Saints are those who fulfill 2 requirements:

1. keep the commandments of God and

2. have the faith of Jesus

without BOTH of the above, we are also lost just like king Saul.

These are post-Rapture saints.

During the "time of Jacob's trouble," when God has returned His focus on Earth to Israel.

[adamjedgar]

i think in the context of what i have just written, your statement is impossible to rationalise. The bible is about the restoration of sinful man to God...it is about the plan of salvation. I do not see how you manage to gain post rapture statements of that type from such a narrative?

 

Do you have definitive references from the bible that logically and consistently present such an argument that do not conflict?

Edited December 2, 2021 by adamjedgar

[adamjedgar]

Having said that, how does that even make any difference? Are you suggesting that the definition of "the saints" are different post rapture to pre rapture? 

 

[MrBear]

I agree
Psalm 19:9-11
God’s laws are pure, eternal, just. They are more desirable than gold. They are sweeter than honey dripping from a honeycomb.  For they warn us away from harm and give success to those who obey them.

the law is Eternal, and we should strive to keep them but God knew we couldn’t keep 316 laws, not even Adam and Eve in a perfect world could keep a simple command of not eating from a tree, and in an imperfect world we can’t keep 316

i know most of the clothes I wear have mixed material in them and that is a commandment not to do

But you made an important statement from Hebrews that Jesus is our high priest so just like in the times of Moses people would come to the priest to mediate for them,. Jesus does for us now.. God understands the world we live in today might not permit you to take a holy day of rest, but we should treat everyday as a holy day to worship him.

Paul says we are in constant war flesh vs spirit, God is all knowing and he reads our Hearts ♥️ 

And as believers we should make our goal to be Christlike in all we do, and when we fail we have a high priest that we can “ pray in his name” and God will hear those prayers and judge us accordingly 

But yes the laws are ETERNAL it is stated in his Bible we are not free from the law but through Jesus we are free from the condemnation of the law as We have our own high priest the shroud was torn and through him ( Iam the door) we can have salvation ?

SHALOM❤️

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by MrBear

[adamjedgar]

56 minutes ago, MrBear said:

I agree
Psalm 19:9-11
God’s laws are pure, eternal, just. They are more desirable than gold. They are sweeter than honey dripping from a honeycomb.  For they warn us away from harm and give success to those who obey them.

the law is Eternal, and we should strive to keep them but God knew we couldn’t keep 316 laws, not even Adam and Eve in a perfect world could keep a simple command of not eating from a tree, and in an imperfect world we can’t keep 316

i know most of the clothes I wear have mixed material in them and that is a commandment not to do

But you made an important statement from Hebrews that Jesus is our high priest so just like in the times of Moses people would come to the priest to mediate for them,. Jesus does for us now.. God understands the world we live in today might not permit you to take a holy day of rest, but we should treat everyday as a holy day to worship him.

Paul says we are in constant war flesh vs spirit, God is all knowing and he reads our Hearts ♥️ 

And as believers we should make our goal to be Christlike in all we do, and when we fail we have a high priest that we can “ pray in his name” and God will hear those prayers and judge us accordingly 

But yes the laws are ETERNAL it is stated in his Bible we are not free from the law but through Jesus we are free from the condemnation of the law as We have our own high priest the shroud was torn and through him ( Iam the door) we can have salvation ?

SHALOM❤️

 

i think that is exactly the point, through the blood of Jesus we are free from the condemnation of the law...such a great way to put it.

Reminds me of this text...written by Paul many years after Jesus ascension to heaven:

Romans 6:23 (BSB)

 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

Interesting thing about gifts...on the part of the receiver, unless one performs the physical action of reaching out an taking the gift, it cannot be enjoyed. I think that its a bit of a fallacy that salvation does not require any works at all. The bible talks about the fruits of the spirit...these are manifest in our actions and these actions come from our decisions in our minds...so its a two part process.

My thought is, just like the Israelites entering the Promised Land of Cannaan, one cannot enter the "rest" of receiving the gift of salvation without some action on the part of the receiver!

Edited December 2, 2021 by adamjedgar

[Bawb]

Just to caveat on the OP's post, the WHOLE BIBLE debuncts the theory that the Old Covenant is different to the New Covenant. They are identical, its the individual who makes the promise to keep it that is different. Some folks just want to do scriptural gymnastics to stay in the RCC's way of wrong, antisemitic thinking...

Shalom

Edited December 3, 2021 by Bawb

[teddyv]

I've heard that the tabernacle was in the middle of the camp because they set up like an Egyptian army camp with the king/Pharaoh's tent in the middle of the camp.

[MrBear]

25 minutes ago, teddyv said:

I've heard that the tabernacle was in the middle of the camp because they set up like an Egyptian army camp with the king/Pharaoh's tent in the middle of the camp.

That’s interesting 

I don’t know about it though because God have explicit commands on how the camp would be set up to the camp for diseased people on the outskirts and each tribe had their own designated positions around the Tabernacle, I’m sure God wouldn’t copy the planning of the Egyptians.

But I admit that’s an interesting take I haven’t heard before?

SHALOM❤️

Edited December 3, 2021 by MrBear

[adamjedgar]

5 hours ago, teddyv said:

I've heard that the tabernacle was in the middle of the camp because they set up like an Egyptian army camp with the king/Pharaoh's tent in the middle of the camp.

I hardly think that has any bearing on the location of the tabernacle...where did the pillar of cloud reside when the Egyptian army were chasing after the Israelites at the Red Sea?

Do you honestly think that God, the same God who struck Hophni and Phinehas down dead for making strange offerings in the Tabernacle, needed to protect it from foreign invaders by surrounding it with a million scapegoats? I think this an unlikely scenario given the evidence in the Bible to the contrary.