Who is the Little Horn of Daniel 8? Can this be linked with the Little Horn in Daniel 7?

[truth7t7]

4 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

you guys do realise the "two witnesses" are the old and new testaments of the bible right?

The (Two Witnesses) seen below are described with personal pronouns "They" "Them" "Their"?

These personal pronouns have bodies that die physical death, lay in a physical street, as a literal world is watching?

How do you come to a conclusion that the two witnesses seen below represents the Holy Bible in the Old/New Testament?

Jesus Is The Lord

Revelation 11:3-15KJV

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Edited December 17, 2021 by truth7t7

[adamjedgar]

You need to research scholarly writings on them...it's not my conclusion, I read a lot of academics works I guess.

Also, you are trying to interpret writings of Revelation using literal methods....the book of Revelation is not a narrative, it contains large amounts of complex imagery ...you can't read it the way you are...that is why you think the witnesses are persons when scholars know they are not.

Edited December 17, 2021 by adamjedgar

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

You need to research scholarly writings on them...it's not my conclusion, I read a lot of academics works I guess.

Also, you are trying to interpret writings of Revelation using literal methods....the book of Revelation is not a narrative, it contains large amounts of complex imagery ...you can't read it the way you are...that is why you think the witnesses are persons when scholars know they are not.

God had already written who the two witnesses were. They appeared with the Lord on Mount Transfiguration. Jesus spoke to them concerning His crucifixion, and they witnessed his resurrection and ascension. Thus they are God`s witnesses of His Son to Israel.

[Diaste]

23 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

you guys do realise the "two witnesses" are the old and new testaments of the bible right?

Okay. Then how is this worked out:

 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them and  they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

 

[adamjedgar]

If you were to recall your history...https://romecorruptedchristianity.wordpress.com/2013/07/02/a-time-when-the-bible-was-banned-and-burned/

 

“During the Dark Ages (A.D. 500-1500),  
Rome burned Bibles along with their owners.”

A  TIME  WHEN  THE  BIBLE  WAS  BANNED
AND  BURNED – By The Apostate Christian Church

"Many people are unaware of the fact that there 
was a long period of time, when the Church of
Christendom – forbid the reading of the Bible."

"Not only did she forbid the reading of the Bible,
but she also forbid having posession of a Bible
in one’s own home."

"These were called the “Dark Ages” for obvious 
reasons.  The Apostate Church of Christendom was
at the peak of her power, and was afraid that if
her subjects owned and read Bibles, that they might
question some of the Church’s actions and teachings."

“During the Dark Ages (A.D. 500-1500),  
Rome burned Bibles along with their owners.”
-The Baptist Pillar
CANADA’S ONLY TRUE BAPTIST PAPER  
Published by Bible Baptist Church

"This was a time, when not only was the Bible banned,
but literacy in general was prohibited and frowned
upon.  Very few people during this time knew how to
read or write.  Again, the Apostate Church was
determined that the less knowledge that people had,
the more easy it would be to rule them. "

“Only ten percent of people 
in the Roman Empire could read…
and those were generally in the wealthy 
upper classes.” 
-River of God, 
Gregory J. Riley, pp. 66

The Church admits this in her own Laws :

“Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should 
not be permitted to have the books of the Old or 
New Testament; we most strictly forbid their having 
any translation of these books.”
– The Church Council of Toulouse 1229 AD

 

I knew this period in history before my parents even became Christian.

Edited December 18, 2021 by adamjedgar

[Reinitin]

On 12/13/2021 at 5:10 AM, adamjedgar said:

I don't see islam working. The final power has to come out of the iron kingdom...it's clear from history that Rome followed Greece. This is an historically proven fact...it must be the correct interpretation.

So, that means the little horn must rise out of the Roman Empire to fit the imagery in the vision

A quick observation...an antichrist is a "wolf in sheep's clothing"...a pretender. 

Islam does not pretend to be Christian...they do not believe in Jesus as Mighty God. Islam I think see their own version of the Abrahamic narrative.. their own version of the chosen people. There is no trickery going on there...it's plainly obvious and not a particularly good effort at deceiving using antichrist (imho).

So this leaves a dilemma...how would a "wolf in sheep's clothing" come out of the Roman Empire?

There is an important characteristic about Greece and particularly Rome, they realised that in order to maintain control, both state and religion were vital...this is how the Papacy got its power, the combining of a pagan state with the christian church...what better way to achieve the "wolf in sheep's clothing" goals than to corrupt the messiahs own message from within his own group of followers...the future Judaces! 

If we look back in history, we hear the term "dark ages". What happened during this time and who was at the helm? Terrible oppression and persecution at the hands of "the church" with the power and blessing of the state...so much so, the pope was like God on earth...he ruled his roost and influenced monarchies everywhere...just look at the crusades! Heretics were killed by the hundreds, thousands...some say millions died at the hand of religious zealots.

This sort of record fits the prophetic writings I think better than Islam...the wolf in sheep's clothing came from Christianity itself!

Many churches claim the "wolf in sheep's clothing" to be manifested through the Roman Catholic Church.

I don't like to point the finger at denominations...I would really prefer a different interpretation...but I honestly think history is against me on this one.

 

Possibly wrong because i havent followed up. And my memory may be bad 

But the two legs of rome because the empire split, it divided. One seat of the roman empire authority was in constinopal. The other One in Italy.

I remember seeing a map of the two legs of the statue in Daniel. With one big toe on rome and one big toe on constinopal. 

And it showed the 5 countries for each foot. Syria, turkey, i think palistein one other muslim country and i think israel was a left foot toe.. it was from a leadership seminar  probably 15 or 20 years ago on Daniel.  

You might want to check. They are all mostly Muslim dominated countries now . if the map presented in that course was correct. The professor was a greek scholar from Cambridge so i image he knew what ge was talking about. 

Seems like accurate info is important to you. 

[adamjedgar]

1 hour ago, Reinitin said:

Possibly wrong because i havent followed up. And my memory may be bad 

But the two legs of rome because the empire split, it divided. One seat of the roman empire authority was in constinopal. The other One in Italy.

I remember seeing a map of the two legs of the statue in Daniel. With one big toe on rome and one big toe on constinopal. 

And it showed the 5 countries for each foot. Syria, turkey, i think palistein one other muslim country and i think israel was a left foot toe.. it was from a leadership seminar  probably 15 or 20 years ago on Daniel.  

You might want to check. They are all mostly Muslim dominated countries now . if the map presented in that course was correct. The professor was a greek scholar from Cambridge so i image he knew what ge was talking about. 

Seems like accurate info is important to you. 

there are fundamental reasons why it is not Islam...and why it cannot be Islam. Already discussed this in the past. There is good reason (and history supports this too) as to why the little horn can only come from the 4 specific kingdoms from Daniel 2 (these are historically proven to be Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, and Rome).

To help with the issue over Rome, might i suggest that one reflects on the "Dark Ages" where under the direction of the Roman Catholic church, millions of bibles were burned (as well as thousands of apparent heretics who owned them) and approx 10% of the population were able to read. The combination of church and state that resulted in this power welding by Catholocism only came from the pagan Roman empire. That is where the two natures of this vision come from...pagan Rome and papal Rome!

Islam has issues, however, realistically it is of no significance to the narrative or prophecies concerning the history of the powers of the end times. If one is going down the pathway of Islam, very soon down that pathway Communism pops up... proponents arguing Communism is the little horn. Trouble is, Islam and Communism are fundamentally opposed for obvious reasons! We are then left with a bigger hole than before...who is it, communism or Islam? The reality is, almost no one takes any notice of an Islamic leader when it comes to economics and religious guidance...western society generally views it as nothing more than a thorn in our sides. The Pope on the other hand, now he has huge world wide influence in almost every corner of the globe and essentially this has been the case for hundreds of years 

The key to the little horn is found in its nature..."wolf in sheeps clothing". As i have said before, historically there is no secret about the aim of Islam. It has never professed to be Christian...no trickery going on there. The little horn comes out of the Christian church...and what better way to fool the nations than pretend to be something you are not...to infiltrate the very Gospel of Christianity with false doctrines etc! 

also, the Seleucid kingdom is part of the Macedonian/Greek empire...The bible is ver yclear on this...it is self evident and does not need an enlightened mind to understand this when compared with world history. I do not understand why it is that proponents of the Antiochus Epiphanes theory continue to completely ignore that historical fact! 

No the idea of the little horn is 100% Greeko-Roman in origin..i say Greeko-Roman because i believe the little horn found in Daniel 7 and 8 and Revelation 13 are not a person...but they most certainly are the same philosophical entity. 

I find strong evidence for this because:

1. Daniel says in Chapter 8 - 1In the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar, a vision appeared to me, Daniel, subsequent to the one that had appeared to me earlier.

2. the nature of the little horn in all 3 visions is identical...it seeks to do exactly the same thing in all three visions...clearly its purpose is the same, therefore it is the same entity! (to be honest that is pretty self evident)

 

Finally, a human drawing of the statue in Daniel 2 standing with one foot in one place, and a second foot in another place, and toes pointing to locations on a map, there is absolutely no evidence in the Daniel vision for this model. One thing that has to be understood about academia, it does not need to provide truth or error rather, its goal is to simply provide evidence to support a point of view. What this means is that there is in fact no right or wrong answer in academia, only what the evidence provided can support! So in this case, that is nothing more than artistic license based on flawed base theory...it is not biblical fact nor is it logically and, more importantly, consistently supported by the historical evidence.

 

I believe that there are huge flaws in that theory that end up contradicting scripture and require explaining away of bible truths in order to make it fit! The worst of it is that we are then left with enormous holes in theology that cannot be explained...the answer then becomes "we just dont know enough yet to explain that". Where have we heard that statement before? Evolutionary science in it efforts to explain where the energy and matter came from that started the big bang! (they actually dont know yet)

Edited December 19, 2021 by adamjedgar

[MrBear]

Weird I was just re reading the book of Maccabees and this name kept popping up in my mind 

Antiochus Epiphanes
 

he made it his mission to destroy all of Gods practices

As commentators say

Modern Bible commentators are almost unanimous in seeing the Greek king, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, as the fulfillment of the little horn of Daniel, chapter 8. Antiochus Epiphanes was an erratic megalomaniac who made it his express purpose to eliminate the religion of Jehovah from the face of the earth

banned the continual sacrifices, desecrated the temple by installing a pagan image, poured swine’s broth around the temple and tortured and murdered thousands who refused to abandon their faith.

In the book he burned all the Law books, banned circumcising to the point of hanging the family of the circumcised child and hung the mothers with the baby’s tied around their necks

Eighty thousand Jews were either slaughtered or sold into slavery. To circumcise a child or to possess a copy of the Law was a crime punishable by death

He erected an altar to Olympian Zeus in the Holy Place, and on it he sacrificed swine’s flesh; and he turned the rooms of the Temple into public brothels… To the Jews Antiochus was the incarnation of all evil
The horn would attack the south and east and the pleasant land i.e. Palestine. Antiochus did exactly that

to read more of the similarities you can visit

https://atoday.org/why-the-little-horn-of-daniel-8-must-be-antiochus-epiphanes/

i got intrigued with this character and not in a good way, the book of Maccabees explains his fate , but it is an Apocryphal book 📕 

so it is not well received and I respect that, but hope that gives another opportunity to look at when discussing the character of little horn, I haven’t given it much thought until this villain stuck in my head- feel free to debunk or unpack 🙂

SHALOM❤️

Edited December 19, 2021 by MrBear

[adamjedgar]

59 minutes ago, MrBear said:

Weird I was just re reading the book of Maccabees and this name kept popping up in my mind 

Antiochus Epiphanes
 

he made it his mission to destroy all of Gods practices

As commentators say

Modern Bible commentators are almost unanimous in seeing the Greek king, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, as the fulfillment of the little horn of Daniel, chapter 8. Antiochus Epiphanes was an erratic megalomaniac who made it his express purpose to eliminate the religion of Jehovah from the face of the earth

 

Actually i dispute that...I would argue that is not in fact true. Most scholars agree that Antiochus Epiphanes was well and truly on the declining end of the Seleucid kingdom...so much so that he in reality could not possibly fulfill all of the prophecy. The truth (which history proves) shows that Antiochus failed in almost everything he did during his reign..the ultimate embarrasment was at the hands of a single Roman politician in Egypt 

Popilius drew a circle in the sand around the king's feet with the stick he was carrying and said, "Before you step out of that circle give me a reply to lay before the senate." For a few moments he [Antiochus] hesitated, astounded at such a peremptory order, and at last replied, "I will do what the senate thinks right."

 

Having said that, i do agree that AE fulfilled at least part of the prophecy (the defilement of Gods Holy Places) which took place soon after the fiasco in Egypt. 

 

My personal belief is that the reign of the "Seleucid kingdom" (of which AE was but one leader) does fulfill Daniel 8. The kingdom was actually at its greatest before his time under the leadership of Antiochus the Great in 200BC (Antiochus III)...approx 3 million sq kilometers.

 

People must stop placing specific leaders names onto the statue in Daniel chapter 2...the statue is not about specific leaders, it is about kingdoms that are to come. If it were about leaders, then future kingdoms would all be over and done with in barely 4 generations...that did not even reach down to the time of Christ, so its not possible to be the correct way to view these visions!

Edited December 19, 2021 by adamjedgar

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

there are fundamental reasons why it is not Islam...and why it cannot be Islam. 

The A/C is not called European, the King of the West, the King of Rome.

God`s word says the A/C is Assyrian, King of the North and King of Babylon.