debrakay Posted December 16, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,249 Content Per Day: 1.92 Reputation: 3,104 Days Won: 20 Joined: 03/02/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted December 16, 2021 On 12/14/2021 at 10:36 AM, Starise said: Yes, just food for thought. Where is the soul of the person who is brain dead on life support? Is it trapped in them unaware of what's happening? I would probably say yes. If we say yes, then we have to admit the existence of the non thinking soul. If there are non thinking souls, then why can't some accept that when we die we could be in the same state until the resurrection? I would add in all of those with Alzheimer's and dementia to this group. I watched my mother in this state for 10 years before her body died. During those 10 years there was very little, if any, sign of her soul, mind, or spirit. I was not worried at all about her salvation for she believed that Jesus was her savior and that truly was all I needed to know as we walked the Alzheimer's path. In reality for me, I do not need all of the minute details of God's plan for every living human being. I only need to know where their salvation lies. Is it at the foot of the cross or not? All of the rest will be revealed when we see God face to face. We are the Lord's vessel and even though we may be broken, cracked, leaky, sometimes useless, and damaged, He patches us up and makes us like new! II Corinthians 4:6-7 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debrakay Posted December 16, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,249 Content Per Day: 1.92 Reputation: 3,104 Days Won: 20 Joined: 03/02/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted December 16, 2021 Learned scholars and friends, please share your thoughts of where the souls and spirits are of the over 62 million aborted American babies who were torn from their mother's wombs before they were fully formed, born or drew their first breath of life? I believe human life begins at conception. I believe they (every single soul) are ALL with the Father as they were never physically born therefore original sin was never placed on them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appy Posted December 16, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 23 Topic Count: 133 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,864 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 2,596 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 16, 2021 @debrakay Don't fret over the aborted babies for we know that God is just and merciful and will do right by them. King David's words should provide us with comfort in knowing babies are with God. Our bodies die and decay, but our spirits will live. 2 Samuel 14 : 14 and Romans 8 : 10-11 certainly provides us with the hope of salvation. 2 Samuel 12 : 23 But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.” Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Hebrews 9:27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 2 Samuel 14:14 Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But that is not what God desires; rather, he devises ways so that a banished person does not remain banished from him. Romans 8 : 10-11 Yet, even though Christ lives within you, your body will die because of sin; but your spirit will live, for Christ has pardoned it. And if the Spirit of God, who raised up Jesus from the dead, lives in you, he will make your dying bodies live again after you die, by means of this same Holy Spirit living within you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debrakay Posted December 16, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,249 Content Per Day: 1.92 Reputation: 3,104 Days Won: 20 Joined: 03/02/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted December 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, appy said: @debrakay Don't fret over the aborted babies for we know that God is just and merciful and will do right by them. King David's words should provide us with comfort in knowing babies are with God. Our bodies die and decay, but our spirits will live. 2 Samuel 14 : 14 and Romans 8 : 10-11 certainly provides us with the hope of salvation. Thank you @appy. I do not fret for I do know the loving Father holds these little ones, who never got to have a full body or enjoy even a breath of life, in his tender loving care. Their spirit and soul is alive just as mine even though I got to have a life on earth. I just read through many of the posts here where others seem to focus on the body rather than the spirit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_from_pa Posted December 16, 2021 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 449 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 302 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/13/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted December 16, 2021 On 12/12/2021 at 2:53 AM, Scott Free said: "It is generally accepted that in biblical thought there is no separation of body and soul and, consequently, the resurrection of the body is central. The idea of an immortal soul is not a Hebrew concept but comes from Platonic philosophy. It is, therefore, considered a severe distortion of the NT to read this foreign idea into its teaching.", Vogels, "Review of "The Garden of Eden and the Hope of Immortality", by James Barr", Critical Review of Books in Religion, volume 7, p. 80 (1994). "Indeed, the salvation of the 'immortal soul' has sometimes been a commonplace in preaching, but it is fundamentally unbiblical. Biblical anthropology is not dualistic but monistic: human being consists in the integrated wholeness of body and soul, and the Bible never contemplates the disembodied existence of the soul in bliss.", Myers (ed.), "The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary", p. 518 (1987). "A broad consensus emerged among biblical and theological scholars that soul-body dualism is a Platonic, Hellenistic idea that is not found anywhere in the Bible. The Bible, from cover to cover, promotes what they call the "Hebrew concept of the whole person." G. C. Berkouwer writes that the biblical view is always holistic, that in the Bible the soul is never ascribed any special religious significance. Werner Jaeger writes that soul-body dualism is a bizarre idea that has been read into the Bible by misguided church fathers such as Augustine. Rudolf Bultmann writes that Paul uses the word soma (body) to refer to the whole person, the self, so that there is not a soul and body, but rather the body is the whole thing. This interpretation of Pauline anthropology has been a theme in much subsequent Pauline scholarship.", McMinn & Phillips, "Care for the soul: exploring the intersection of psychology & theology", pp. 107-108 (2001) "That the idea of the soul's immortality as disembodied state beyond death is not popular amongst Christian theologians or among Christian philosophers today has already been acknowledged.", Hebblethwaite, "Philosophical theology and Christian doctrine", p. 113 (2005). I agree. A separate "soul" living with the Lord after death is not biblical but rather our hope is in resurrection. If we lived as "souls" with the Lord, there would be no need for a resurrection. It makes no sense that the resurrection is "rejoining the soul with the body" doctrine. If I may make a note here, if we "sleep" until resurrection, then like a time machine our next conscious moment is "with the Lord" and in a sense are instantly transported into the future. Thus, the dead do not miss us. We miss the dead. The dead are ALREADY with us because we are all in the future. A person who died may say, "I just died and everyone is with me already! What gives?" LOL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_from_pa Posted December 16, 2021 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 449 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 302 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/13/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted December 16, 2021 On 12/12/2021 at 2:53 AM, Scott Free said: "It is generally accepted that in biblical thought there is no separation of body and soul and, consequently, the resurrection of the body is central. The idea of an immortal soul is not a Hebrew concept but comes from Platonic philosophy. It is, therefore, considered a severe distortion of the NT to read this foreign idea into its teaching.", Vogels, "Review of "The Garden of Eden and the Hope of Immortality", by James Barr", Critical Review of Books in Religion, volume 7, p. 80 (1994). "Indeed, the salvation of the 'immortal soul' has sometimes been a commonplace in preaching, but it is fundamentally unbiblical. Biblical anthropology is not dualistic but monistic: human being consists in the integrated wholeness of body and soul, and the Bible never contemplates the disembodied existence of the soul in bliss.", Myers (ed.), "The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary", p. 518 (1987). "A broad consensus emerged among biblical and theological scholars that soul-body dualism is a Platonic, Hellenistic idea that is not found anywhere in the Bible. The Bible, from cover to cover, promotes what they call the "Hebrew concept of the whole person." G. C. Berkouwer writes that the biblical view is always holistic, that in the Bible the soul is never ascribed any special religious significance. Werner Jaeger writes that soul-body dualism is a bizarre idea that has been read into the Bible by misguided church fathers such as Augustine. Rudolf Bultmann writes that Paul uses the word soma (body) to refer to the whole person, the self, so that there is not a soul and body, but rather the body is the whole thing. This interpretation of Pauline anthropology has been a theme in much subsequent Pauline scholarship.", McMinn & Phillips, "Care for the soul: exploring the intersection of psychology & theology", pp. 107-108 (2001) "That the idea of the soul's immortality as disembodied state beyond death is not popular amongst Christian theologians or among Christian philosophers today has already been acknowledged.", Hebblethwaite, "Philosophical theology and Christian doctrine", p. 113 (2005). I agree. A separate "soul" living with the Lord after death is not biblical but rather our hope is in resurrection. If we lived as "souls" with the Lord, there would be no need for a resurrection. It makes no sense that the resurrection is "rejoining the soul with the body" doctrine. If I may make a note here, if we "sleep" until resurrection, then like a time machine our next conscious moment is "with the Lord" and in a sense are instantly transported into the future. Thus, the dead do not miss us. We miss the dead. The dead are ALREADY with us because we are all in the future. A person who died may say, "I just died and everyone is with me already! What gives?" LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted December 16, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,890 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,777 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 16, 2021 1 hour ago, appy said: 2 Samuel 12 : 23 But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.” ? It seems that you can understand what David was talking about, David said that I will go to him... Where was David going? Where was David going at the time of his death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie744 Posted December 17, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,690 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 862 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted December 17, 2021 15 hours ago, Biblican said: The soul is formed in the body by God and is separate from the body. Isaiah 57:16,Jeremiah 1:5,38:16. The body is given life by the breath, the nashamah which enables the soul to live in a living body. If the body is destroyed, the soul is released. The soul does not die when the body dies or else we would not be commissioned to preach the gospel to save souls. The soul is the person of anyone, their being. I shared this before. A friend who is a surgeon told me he operated on a young man who was shot in a gang fight. The man died on the operating table. They brought him back and the first thing he said was, "My mother was right!" Apparently he had a praying mother. The man received the Lord while his soul was hovering above his body watching them work on him. He could see, hear and think without his body. Again, the soul is the person of anyone. If the soul was one with the body and not formed distinctly within it, then the soul would have to perish when the body died. I am going to have to move on. I appreciate your strong convictions about the body, soul and spirit. However, you do not want to read Genesis 2:7 which defines how God made Adam. These are not MY opinions or MY interpretations or how I want to think what verses in later books of the Bible might be interpreted. If God tells us in 2:7 this is how He made Adam, why would anyone change it? I certainly understand there are verses that may SEEM to contradict 2:7, because they have all 3 (body, soul and spirit) in the same verse, but that means there is an opportunity to see why this is so. But there is a definition that has been provided by God that does not change from Genesis to Revelation- can not happen! Anyway, best wishes, Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appy Posted December 17, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 23 Topic Count: 133 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,864 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 2,596 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 17, 2021 15 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: ? It seems that you can understand what David was talking about, David said that I will go to him... Where was David going? Where was David going at the time of his death? In 2 Samuel 12 : 18 We read that the first child from David and Bathsheba died. Then down in verse 23 David answers the attendants concerns. “But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.” David was confident that his son would meet him in heaven, when he, himself went to heaven. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Free Posted December 17, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 88 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.62 Reputation: 290 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 17, 2021 17 hours ago, tim_from_pa said: I agree. A separate "soul" living with the Lord after death is not biblical but rather our hope is in resurrection. If we lived as "souls" with the Lord, there would be no need for a resurrection. It makes no sense that the resurrection is "rejoining the soul with the body" doctrine. If I may make a note here, if we "sleep" until resurrection, then like a time machine our next conscious moment is "with the Lord" and in a sense are instantly transported into the future. Thus, the dead do not miss us. We miss the dead. The dead are ALREADY with us because we are all in the future. A person who died may say, "I just died and everyone is with me already! What gives?" LOL Study the theory of special relativity for you answer. It is supported in the Bible. Time is not the quantity of a thing, it is a quality of ones own perception. "A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night." Psalm 90:4 "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:8–9 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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