The Great Tribulation Will Be Upon The Antichrist And Wicked, The Sealed Church Is Protected, Dont Be Deceived

[JoeCanada]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

This is based on what scripture does not say. No where in scripture that I know tells us Paul did or did not know a thing, nor when he knew it or did not know that thing.

Yes, I suppose we could all use that argument. Maybe he did know, maybe he didn't know, perhaps he assumed this, maybe he was taught it secretly by Jesus.... and on and on we could go. 

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

One, there is no last trump at the feast of trumpets in scripture.

The Feast of Trumpets (plural) has to have a "last trumpet". Otherwise it would be called the Feast of Trumpet.

 

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Paul was privy to mysteries and he revealed them in his letters, notably 1 Cor 15:51-52.

 

Yes.... In 1 Cor 13, Paul speaks of having the gift of prophecy....and know all mysteries and all knowledge. The mysteries and knowledge comes with the gift of prophecy. But did he know "all" mysteries and "all" knowledge. No, of course not. That is an attribute of God only.

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

the last trump, the trump of God and a loud trump are all closely associated with the Coming of Jesus and the gathering of the elect. This says to me it's one trump that's last, loud and belongs to God. If we pare out the last trump then what are we to do with the trump of God and the loud trumpet call? 

I couldn't agree with you more.

Like you say.... "it's one trump that's last, loud, and belongs to God"

Does the trump that the 7th angel blows meet any of the above criteria that you spelled out? ........... Just one, it's the last. 

"Then the seventh angel sounded"............. that's all it says.

"Seven angels who stand before God and seven trumpets were given to them"..Rev8

Do the trumpets belong to God? Surely, all things in heaven and earth belong to God. Were they given to the angels by God Himself?........................ Scripture doesn't say. The trumpets given to them could have been given by an angel, an elder, one of the living creatures. Scripture just doesn't say. 

But it does say that the angel "sounded". The angel blows the trumpet. That much we do know. And we also know that the trumpet was the seventh, which means that all the other trumpets would have to be blown first.

Is there anywhere with the opening of the 7 seals that we see the first 6 judgments of God's Wrath, the 6 trumpets blown by the 6 angels?

You can't have the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet of the 7, be blown first or second. or third...etc. It has to be blown after the 6th. And if you maintain that the seventh trumpet is blown at or immediately following the 6th seal, then the other trumpets have to be blown first. 

[truth7t7]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

This is based on what scripture does not say. No where in scripture that I know tells us Paul did or did not know a thing, nor when he knew it or did not know that thing.

Clearly there is a direct statement referring to a trump associated with Jesus coming and the gathering of the elect in Matt 34:31. Now I don't know this to be the case but it's reasonable there was a lot of off the books conversation occurring. We don't know what was taught besides what we see written.

John alludes to much, much more:

"There are many more things that Jesus did. If all of them were written down, I suppose that not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written." 

And at least once this happened:

"While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately."

How often did this occur and what was said that we don't know about?

Now you say that Paul could not have known about the 7th trump so it must some other known trump as the Revelation had not been handed to John at that point.

One, there is no last trump at the feast of trumpets in scripture. If there is one it's a Talmudic tradition of rabbinical origin.

Two, Paul knew about the mystery he reveals in 1 Cor 15:51-52. Paul also knew about the dread man of sin in 2 Thess 2:3-4. He also knew about the nature of the coming of Jesus in 1 Thess 5 along with our appointment with salvation and not wrath, and our sober walk in the light that darkness and the thief which brings wrath will not overtake us. 

All this was taught to Paul by the disciples or at the meeting on the road to Damascus, or some other revelatory experience which was not recorded, but to which Paul alludes in his letters. We don't question where Paul learned such things, from whom or when. No doubt Jesus taught the disciples about these things and they related them to Paul during get togethers; or Paul received direct revelation.

Paul further claims revelation from Christ learning many things directly from the King Himself. 

Paul speaks to things never before revealed to anyone, especially 1 Cor 15:51-52, and we accept this is fact apart from prior knowledge contained in individuals or groups.

Matt 24 is an outline of the end of the age. The disciples asked Him for this. Jesus exposition on this raise many questions and it's without doubt in my mind after the Olivet Discourse many things were discussed, many questions asked, and many answers given, none of which were recorded. 

Many questions could be answered that do not harm the timing of the Revelation nor it's content, the last trump equivalent to the 7th trump being one.

 

 

Do you believe any of the three items below have been fulfilled, if yes when?

1. Matthew 24:15 Daniel's Abomination?
2. Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation?
3. Matthew 24:29-31 The Second Coming?

[The Light]

On 12/31/2021 at 4:32 AM, Diaste said:

"Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake." 7th Seal

"Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm." 7th Trump

"And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake." 7th Bowl

Idk. Maybe these same conditions occur 3 times months or years apart. I don't think so.

As I have stated, the seventh seal has to be opened BEFORE the trumpets can sound. Therefore, the peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake cannot be the same ones described at the 7th trumpet.

As for the bowls, those thunders and rumblings and lightning and an earthquake at the same ones that you see in the trumpets.

On 12/31/2021 at 4:32 AM, Diaste said:

"The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place." 6th Seal

"Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found." 7th Bowl.

So the mountains and islands are moved then put back so sometime later the islands could disappear again? Hmm...

It says every mountain and island was moved from it's place. That's quite different than every island fled, and no mountain could be found.

On 12/31/2021 at 4:32 AM, Diaste said:

"And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm." 7th Trump

"And great hailstones weighing almost a hundred pounds each rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous." 7th Bowl

You could be right. But there would have to be two hailstorms, one at the 7th Trump and one at the 7th Bowl.

Why would you think there would have to be two hail storms? The trumpets and bowls happen concurrently.

The wrath God is over at the 7th trumpet. Jesus has returned and set up His kingdom on earth.

Rev 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

What you see in Rev 13 and 14 occurs during the seals.

Here is the great tribulation at the 5th seal.

Rev 6

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Here is the great tribulation in Rev 14.

Rev 14

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Here is the coming of Jesus in Rev 14

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

Here is the wrath of God getting ready to begin when the 7th seal is opened and the  1st trumpet blown.

Rev 6

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Here is the wrath of God getting ready to begin in Rev 14. It will start with the 1st bowl.

Rev 14

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

On 12/31/2021 at 4:32 AM, Diaste said:

Several conditions just in this small bit of scripture above would have to be duplicated, or in triplicate, if 7 trumps are sounded only after all the seals were opened.

There is a duplication. The trumpets run concurrently with the bowls.

On 12/31/2021 at 4:32 AM, Diaste said:

Not only this but I can see the effects of the trumps in the seals. The first 3 trumps bring about scarcity of food grains, goods and water. The loss of all the green grass means the herds are going to die off as well so meat is also soon to be scarce. Wars have been fought for less. In the 2nd seal we have war and men killing each other. 

Why? It's not a stretch to think it's over scarce resources.

A result of scarcity is rationing. Many interpret the 3rd seal as economic collapse. Some say it's a global famine. I think it's rationing based on scarcity to alleviate the coming famine; a famine based on the fact the 1st trump burned up all the green grass. 

 Another result of scarcity is death. If all the green grass is gone there is no harvest. The herds are dead in a matter of months if they have no pasture. Stored grains and silage only last the one season for the herds. So we have a disastrous shortfall of grains and meat, just because of the 1st trump. What follows is death from every side as the 4th seal depicts. 

And what about the water? Death comes inside a week with no water. There is a connection there with wars and death and the lack of water. Again a trump can easily be seen in one or more seals as wars have been fought over water rights and people have died as a result. What happens when there is no fresh water? People will not take it in a calm rational manner. 

Starvation and poor nutrition allows for death by disease. With the herds gone predators will turn to killing anything that moves. Men and countries will kill for food, water and goods. Don't underestimate the power and influence of empty bellies and thirsty mouths.

The first 3 trumps are literally within seals 2-4 from what I see.

 

Ok Brother. Here are seals 2-4, and I'll add seal 1.

Rev 6

1  And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Here are the 1st 4 seals in Matthew 24. Note, they do not occur during the wrath God. They occur in the tribulation period.

Matthew 24

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Here is the great tribulation at the 5th seal.

Rev 6

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Here is the great tribulation in Matt 24

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Here is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Here is the coming of Jesus in Matt 24

Matt 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So what I am telling you is that the seals DO NOT happen concurrently with the trumpets. The seals happen during the tribulation which we can see in Matthew 24. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, Jesus comes. We can see that coming at the 6th seal. We can also see that coming at the end of Rev 14. Then the wrath of God begins which is the trumpets and bowls. They run concurrently.

You are a smart guy. You should be able to see this.  I have laid everything out for you. 

Edited January 3, 2022 by The Light

[The Light]

On 1/1/2022 at 10:15 PM, truth7t7 said:

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture, the Church will be present on earth to witness the second coming

Really? Jesus says there is. Then tell me, where is Revelation does He come for the rapture?

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 12/23/2021 at 4:27 PM, truth7t7 said:

And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

"I saw a star fall from heaven to earth..
And he opened the shaft of the abyss, and there arose smoke out of the abyss..."
Revelation 9:1-2

Let us note that the locusts come from earth, from the abyss that is opened on earth.
I believe that during the time of these locusts the world will be led to believe that they are instead beings from 'outer-space'. Revelation 9 speaks of actual events that will happen, it is not super figurative.

But indeed, during that time, those sealed with the Holy Spirit would not have anything to fear.

 

[truth7t7]

4 hours ago, The Light said:

Really? Jesus says there is. Then tell me, where is Revelation does He come for the rapture?

Once again there is no pre-trib rapture found in scripture

Let your response include a verse claiming a pre-trib rapture is seen, waiting?

[truth7t7]

23 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

"I saw a star fall from heaven to earth..
And he opened the shaft of the abyss, and there arose smoke out of the abyss..."
Revelation 9:1-2

Let us note that the locusts come from earth, from the abyss that is opened on earth.
I believe that during the time of these locusts the world will be led to believe that they are instead beings from 'outer-space'. Revelation 9 speaks of actual events that will happen, it is not super figurative.

But indeed, during that time, those sealed with the Holy Spirit would not have anything to fear.

 

Beings from outer space?

I was thinking more in line of Steven Spielberg's Jurassic Park, what ya think?

[The Light]

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Once again there is no pre-trib rapture found in scripture

Let your response include a verse claiming a pre-trib rapture is seen, waiting?

Whoa. Back up. You can't answer the question that I asked you? It's a simple question. Where in Revelation does Jesus come for the rapture? 

Answering a question with a question? That's all you got?

 

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Whoa. Back up. You can't answer the question that I asked you? It's a simple question. Where in Revelation does Jesus come for the rapture? 

Answering a question with a question? That's all you got?

 

I have answered your question directly 

Once again there is no pre-trib rapture found in scripture

Let your response include a verse claiming a pre-trib rapture is seen, waiting?

[The Light]

2 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

I have answered your question directly 

Once again there is no pre-trib rapture found in scripture

Let your response include a verse claiming a pre-trib rapture is seen, waiting?

I'm not asking you when the pre trib rapture is. You've already indicated you have been unable to locate it, which is understandable. I'm asking you, where in Revelation, chapter and verses, do you see the rapture of the Church happening?