The Israel Of God Is The Church

[AdHoc]

4 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I did not say you had but the facts in evidence are that you did, just not explicitly. You said God's covenant promised a king. Are you now going to argue God promised something He never wanted? So, in point of fact the matter of God's desire was implicitly addressed. 

But that was not my reason for including the other information. Whether or not you thought you had, or intended to address God wanting a king the fact remains there is no promise of a king in the Genesis 17 covenant. The only mention of any king is the foretelling kings would come to him. One of the recurring problems in these threads on prophecy and Israel v the Church is that there is a certain group of Christians who do not (and will not even when asked to do so) examine New Testament commentary on Old Testament prophecy. They'd rather ally with and rely upon a 19th or 20th century extra-biblical commentary than the first century commentary God Himself provided. 

I sampled that commentary. 

I sampled it because 1) it is completely incorrect to say God promised a king in Genesis 17. That's not to say a king was not promised in the Abrahamic covenant, only that it is NOT in Genesis 17, 2) both the Old and New Testaments have a few things to say about both the covenant and the promise of a King, and 3) I was furthering the discussion. 

Good. that clears that up. I hope too that the posting after yours to Anne2 is also satisfactory. My answers, based on not addressing her question precisely, were incorrect.

[AdHoc]

44 minutes ago, Josheb said:

No, there is no question about whether a king is mentioned. There is no king promised in Genesis 17. Your earlier post is wrong. 

lol! Grab a mirror. 

It's not that complicated. A single simple, plainly stated and easily read statement was posted in answer to a single, simple, plainly asked and easily read question: 

Where is the promise to the nation of Israel to dwell with their king?

And the answer was,  

So, I got out my Bible and read Genesis 17 and what you said Genesis 17 says is nowhere to be found in Genesis 17 and I posted the entire chapter so you, me, and everyone else could see for ourselves and AGREE. 

So, the idea, "It seems that you want dispute at all costs," is just as lame as the statement the covenant made with Abraham in Genesis 17 promises a nation of Israel with their king. 

 

So, stop making false statements abot scripture and your fellow posters, look squarely at God's word as written, and build from consensus, beginning with, "Josh, you are correct; Genesis 17 does not actually promise Israel will dwell with their king," and then either clarify or correct you earlier statement. 

 

Because it looks like you are the one wanting dispute at all costs. 

 

Prepare yourself for this conversation because when we get done agreeing about Genesis 17 I'll take a look at Deuteronomy 17, 1 Kings 9:5 and 2 Chronicles 7:18, and Jeremiah 23:5-6. Pay attention and realize the Genesis 17 response does NOT answer anne2's question!!! We'll find out whether the other passages do or not and we will do so with your collaborative participation or not. Your best play is a collaborative examination of whole scripture. 

Yes? 

 

So the next step should be plain, simple, and easy: Acknowledge Genesis 17 does not promise the nation of Israel they'd dwell with their king. I'll move on to the next matter immediately, quickly, succinctly, decisively, and hopefully with a mutually engaged collaborative examination of God's word.

I read the following:

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and (I) thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 (II) Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for (I) a father of many nations have I made thee. 6 And I (III) will make thee exceeding fruitful, and (IV) I will make nations of thee, and (V) kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

On what basis do you say that Chapter 17 is not a Covenant? I read the word "Covenant" TEN Times, and it includes what is the part of Abraham and his seed - the mark of a true Covenant. Both parties are expected to perform.

[Anne2]

20 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

 

In retrospect, I did not answer your question properly. I understood you to have objected because I did not take into consideration the Promises and the Law when quoting the prophets. Your precise wording was for me to show the PROMISE of a King dwelling with Israel IN THE LAW.

There is not such a promise. I should have been more precise and said that in God's foreknowledge He REGULATED the future kings of Israel in the Law. And although God PROMISED kings from Sarah, He did not promise A king dwelling in their midst. Please ignore my answers.

Having established that, the fact of our Lord Jesus living in Jerusalem as King of the Jews is still correct. But you objected. Could you expand on your statement that this fact pointed to me not reading the prophets in light of the Promises? Thanks.

I also must say I am not expressing my thoughts on this very well.  Let me try and explain how I am seeing this.

The promised seed to Abraham in the second covenant of Genesis 17 is one distinct covenant.

Kings/priests. This covenant speaks of kings equally being priests. We know from the law that priests are anointed ones. So are kings anointed ones.

The genesis 17 covenant unlike the covenant made in Genesis 12 includes the first generation to the last generation. Genesis 15 concerns the fourth generation distinctly. Which are slaves in Egypt. 

How I see scripture on this is....Men chosen to Share in these promises. Isaac, a co heir of the same promise by choice. Jacob, the same thing, an heir in this covenant by choice. This choosing continues under the law. When men such as David become an heir by God's choice we tend to see it as a distinct covenant with them. I don't think that is how it works. Rather David came into this second inheritance just like Jacob did. Christ the seed promised to Abraham, then Isaac, then Jacob. Am I making any sense?

Edited January 2, 2022 by Anne2

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, Anne2 said:

I also must say I am not expressing my thoughts on this very well.  Let me try and explain how I am seeing this.

The promised seed to Abraham in the second covenant of Genesis 17 is one distinct covenant.

Kings/priests. This covenant speaks of kings equally being priests. We know from the law that priests are anointed ones. So are kings anointed ones.

The genesis 17 covenant unlike the covenant made in Genesis 12 includes the first generation to the last generation. Genesis 12 concerns the fourth generation distinctly. Which are slaves in Egypt. 

How I see scripture on this is....Men chosen to Share in these promises. Isaac, a co heir of the same promise by choice. Jacob, the same thing, an heir in this covenant by choice. This choosing continues under the law. When men such as David become an heir by God's choice we tend to see it as a distinct covenant with them. I don't think that is how it works. Rather David came into this second inheritance just like Jacob did. Christ the seed promised to Abraham, then Isaac, then Jacob. Am I making any sense?

The sequence is difficult because in Chapter 12 God Promises the Land but no Covenant is made. A Covenant is a Contract but the Hebrew word means "cutting". This occurs in Chapter 15, but no condition is placed on Abraham. In Chapter 17 God plainly makes a Covenant, with circumcision as the duty of Abraham and his seed, but no "cutting" takes place. But we have two hints at a solution.

1. In Chapters 12 and 13 Abraham made an altar. In Chapter 15 we have a special offering and in Chapter 17 we have the "cutting" of the foreskin. So it is not like there is no Covenant made in all three.
2. Hebrews 9:18-21 says that every Covenant made with God, because man is a sinner, must be RATIFIED in blood. Now, the date of begin of a Covenant does not have to be the same as the day of ratification. In Chapter 15 the Covenant is ratified by a special offering (or offerings), but the due date of occupation of the Land by his seed is nearly five hundred years hence, and Abraham will have to wait 4,500 years for occupation because he must first be resurrected.

So, could it be that we have the full contents of the PROMISES spread over 3 different Chapters, but only ONE COVENANT, with a threefold RATIFICATION? Consider the situation. Abraham must lose his fleshly family - leave them in Chaldea. His did not want to but his father is "cut off". Then, he must cross the "flood" (Josh.24:2) and is cut off from his past of idol worship. Then he builds an altar for burnt offerings. Then comes the cutting in half of the sacrifices of Chapter 15. I judge that the sacrifices speak of:

1. The heifer - Christ, the strong servant Who dies for both Israel and the Church
2. The goat and the ram - the two houses of Israel which are divided
3. The turtle doves - the Church which is two for witness but not divided

And again we have three "seeds" of Abraham;

1. Christ - the "Seed" (singular) Who will bring the Holy Spirit to mankind
2. Seed as the sand of the sea-shore - Israel - God's earthly people
3. Seed as the stars of heaven - God's heavenly people - the Church

Again, the heifer, the ram and the goat are three years old showing that Christ and Israel, like Abraham, only receive the Land IN RESURRECTION. The doves need not be three because they, unlike Israel, are IN Christ and are raised TOGETHER with Christ (Eph.1)

Why I observe all this is to show that although we mortals like things in logical sequence, the Lord, for revealing many other aspects, spreads ONE COVENANT over three separate occasions, with different "cuttings".

I might have missed something, but it is fascinating. And then God, Who could easily have made an-other Covenant with the Church, does not need to because He presents Christ as a Seed in John 12:24, and because we, the Church come out of that Seed, are "seed of Abraham and heir to the PROMISES" (Gal.3:29). We do not need;

1. A new covenant as we become heirs to it by being IN Christ
2. A second set of Promises
3. To become citizens of Israel because we have a new and heavenly birth via Christ
4. To be placed under the Covenant of Sinai because we only enjoy the "Commonwealth" of Israel, but remain exclusively citizens of heaven with the "Law of life in Christ Jesus".

It is so clever. No man could think up such a solution.

Anyway, I hope this has contributed to our exchange of ideas.

Go well.

[Anne2]

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The sequence is difficult because in Chapter 12 God Promises the Land but no Covenant is made. A Covenant is a Contract but the Hebrew word means "cutting". This occurs in Chapter 15, but no condition is placed on Abraham. In Chapter 17 God plainly makes a Covenant, with circumcision as the duty of Abraham and his seed, but no "cutting" takes place. But we have two hints at a solution.

1. In Chapters 12 and 13 Abraham made an altar. In Chapter 15 we have a special offering and in Chapter 17 we have the "cutting" of the foreskin. So it is not like there is no Covenant made in all three.
2. Hebrews 9:18-21 says that every Covenant made with God, because man is a sinner, must be RATIFIED in blood. Now, the date of begin of a Covenant does not have to be the same as the day of ratification. In Chapter 15 the Covenant is ratified by a special offering (or offerings), but the due date of occupation of the Land by his seed is nearly five hundred years hence, and Abraham will have to wait 4,500 years for occupation because he must first be resurrected.

So, could it be that we have the full contents of the PROMISES spread over 3 different Chapters, but only ONE COVENANT, with a threefold RATIFICATION? Consider the situation. Abraham must lose his fleshly family - leave them in Chaldea. His did not want to but his father is "cut off". Then, he must cross the "flood" (Josh.24:2) and is cut off from his past of idol worship. Then he builds an altar for burnt offerings. Then comes the cutting in half of the sacrifices of Chapter 15. I judge that the sacrifices speak of:

1. The heifer - Christ, the strong servant Who dies for both Israel and the Church
2. The goat and the ram - the two houses of Israel which are divided
3. The turtle doves - the Church which is two for witness but not divided

And again we have three "seeds" of Abraham;

1. Christ - the "Seed" (singular) Who will bring the Holy Spirit to mankind
2. Seed as the sand of the sea-shore - Israel - God's earthly people
3. Seed as the stars of heaven - God's heavenly people - the Church

Again, the heifer, the ram and the goat are three years old showing that Christ and Israel, like Abraham, only receive the Land IN RESURRECTION. The doves need not be three because they, unlike Israel, are IN Christ and are raised TOGETHER with Christ (Eph.1)

Why I observe all this is to show that although we mortals like things in logical sequence, the Lord, for revealing many other aspects, spreads ONE COVENANT over three separate occasions, with different "cuttings".

I might have missed something, but it is fascinating. And then God, Who could easily have made an-other Covenant with the Church, does not need to because He presents Christ as a Seed in John 12:24, and because we, the Church come out of that Seed, are "seed of Abraham and heir to the PROMISES" (Gal.3:29). We do not need;

1. A new covenant as we become heirs to it by being IN Christ
2. A second set of Promises
3. To become citizens of Israel because we have a new and heavenly birth via Christ
4. To be placed under the Covenant of Sinai because we only enjoy the "Commonwealth" of Israel, but remain exclusively citizens of heaven with the "Law of life in Christ Jesus".

It is so clever. No man could think up such a solution.

Anyway, I hope this has contributed to our exchange of ideas.

Go well.

I am sorry, I edited my post since I made a mistake. Genesis 15 (I originally said Gen 12) is the covenant which concerns the fourth generation. Genesis 17 begins with the first Generation, Isaac.   

[tatwo]

Wow…I just read all of the posts in the “The Israel Of God Is The Church” there is so much being said. Often times things are said differently but mean the same thing…can be confusing. I truly have gained some light as a result of this forum to be sure.

I take a simpler look at this subject from this perspective…“And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.” Gen 3:15 NASB

I see two seeds…Christ and the beast…in the mind of God from the beginning…more can be said…that’s enough for now.

“Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;” Gen 1:26a NASB

His desire for creation is to put Himself on display in humanity…which He did in Christ the head of Christ the body. The Fathers desire is for all that He created to see His character and nature…to be incarnate…in His family. This is what He is presently doing…call it what you want.

 

Tatwo

[Alive]

38 minutes ago, tatwo said:

Wow…I just read all of the posts in the “The Israel Of God Is The Church” there is so much being said. Often times things are said differently but mean the same thing…can be confusing. I truly have gained some light as a result of this forum to be sure.

I take a simpler look at this subject from this perspective…“And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.” Gen 3:15 NASB

I see two seeds…Christ and the beast…in the mind of God from the beginning…more can be said…that’s enough for now.

“Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;” Gen 1:26a NASB

His desire for creation is to put Himself on display in humanity…which He did in Christ the head of Christ the body. The Fathers desire is for all that He created to see His character and nature…to be incarnate…in His family. This is what He is presently doing…call it what you want.

 

Tatwo

Hey, Tatwo. You have touched on one of my favorite nuggets and a lens by which I look at much.

God’s “eternal purpose” and I believe it was/is to share ‘being’. To share existence and to do so in expressing a family to work along with Him in His likeness. Its ontological. He desires a family to express His Glory. To express Himself. Where I go from there is asking..so what is the audience. I suspect the answer to that question is more expansive than any of us can begin to imagine and he gave us a significant imagination.

 

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

Hey, Tatwo. You have touched on one of my favorite nuggets and a lens by which I look at much.

God’s “eternal purpose” and I believe it was/is to share ‘being’. To share existence and to do so in expressing a family to work along with Him in His likeness. Its ontological. He desires a family to express His Glory. To express Himself. Where I go from there is asking..so what is the audience. I suspect the answer to that question is more expansive than any of us can begin to imagine and he gave us a significant imagination.

 

God has a family, it's called (The Church)

[Anne2]

On 12/26/2021 at 7:08 AM, Josheb said:

Technically, the tree of Israel, the "Israel of God," is Christ crucified and resurrected, the Messiah, God's anointed one. The Jews are branches of that same tree into which Gentiles have been grafted. Furthermore, the Jewish branches are not bloodline branches but those who live by faith. Faithless fruitless branches are pruned off the tree. 

But not all Israel, is Israel. 

Ex 4:22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Two covenants. Two inheritances? One earthly worldly temporal, the other heavenly eternal.

The firstborn has a double portion of inheritance. 

Heb 12:23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, {written: or, enrolled

A kingdom of priests.

 

 Mt 19:28  And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Lu 22:30  That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Anne2

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

I very passionately disagree. There is  now only ONE covenant of God.  It is the one that He made with the chosen remnant of Jew and Gentile through Jesus Christ,  before the world began. The nation of Israel will vehemently reject Christ until the last day, when they see Him coming in flaming fire. 

I think you should have shown this Covenant in scripture. And it is not the New Covenant which Christ ratified in His blood on Golgotha. That Covenant is made exclusively with Israel (Jer.31:31-33). Look how Hebrews 8:8-10 confirms it;

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

v.8 "The days COME"! It is a future time to the writing of Hebrews
v.8 "Israel and Judah". The Covenant is made when these two are one nation again
v.9 "Their Fathers (plural). The Church has ONE Father and it did not come out of THE LAND Egypt (there can be no allegory here - "the Land") It is that hoard under Moses.
v.9 "I regarded them not". They are "Lo-ammi" (Hos.1) - "you are not my people". This never happened to the Church. Even in Revelation 18, Christians found in Mystery Babylon are called "my people" (v.4)
v.10 It is a Covenant of "My Laws" "saith the Lord" - not Jesus. There is only one set of Laws that are God's - that of Moses.

I think that you have attributed a Covenant of Law, predicted for Israel, to the Church. The Church is under two Covenants, neither of which are Law.

What is correct in your posting is that Paul confirms the fallen state of Israel "UNTIL ....". The word "UNTIL" means that Israel, at a certain time, have their blindness removed and their hard hearts will "mourn". So the New Covenant cannot come UNTIL then because they get a new spirit and a new heart.

17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. 18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence. 19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: 20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

You can see that Israel only get their new spirits and hearts AFTER they are gathered from the diaspora. Then they will keep "my statutes and my ordinances".