Is "The Law" a Curse?

[adamjedgar]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Can we summarize all of that to say, "Loving God with heart, mind, soul, and strength and loving our neighbor as ourselves" is the requirement of the new covenant? 

i know this is going back a ways in the posts here...popular topic and moving so fast...

I believe that is absolutely "an interpretation" of the new covenant, however, it is kinda based on something a little higher up the chain. Let me explain my thoughts on this...

The 10 commands tell us that we should love the Lord Thy God (first 4 commandments) and thy neighbour as thy self (last 6 commandments). This is also the greatest commandment given to us by Jesus

 

Love God: Commandments 1-4

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.

2. You shall not make for yourself an idol

3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain

4. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God

Love Thy Neighbour: Commandments 5-10

5. Honor your father and mother

6. You shall not murder.

7. You shall not commit adultery

8. You shall not steal

9. You shall not bear false witness

10. You shall not covet

So if we are to link that with the interpretation of your question, then Loving God first allows us to then Love our neighbour.

The Gospel is about loving God actually. The fruit of loving God is keeping his command obviously, however there is a second part of that which is loving your neighbour as yourself.

 

that is my take on it anyways.

Edited January 2, 2022 by adamjedgar

[Sower]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Can we summarize all of that to say, "Loving God with heart, mind, soul, and strength and loving our neighbor as ourselves" is the requirement of the new covenant? 

I gave you the short version of my answer.
I gave you the expanded version of my answer, highlighted in purple, with five verses to include context.
Your version is somewhere in between those two.
You can change/format it to suit your need......
It may not be the answer you were looking for.
By faith I believe it is God's summary, when applied in faith, to please Him.

    “Which commandment is the most important of all?”    Mark 12, 28


 

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, Bawb said:

Did you do any of the following today?

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.

2. You shall make no idols.

3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

4. Keep the Sabbath day holy.

5. Honor your father and your mother.

6. You shall not murder.

7. You shall not commit adultery.

8. You shall not steal.

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

10. You shall not covet.

Well, you'd have to tell be what those mean to you, before I could answer meaningfully. What does number 4 mean? Today is Saturday where I am, and I did no work, unless using the keyboard and other switches, and preparing a meal by spooning ingredients onto a plate is work, like Orthodox Jews hold. 

as far as I am aware, no problem with the other 9, however, I flunked this one that Jesus gave:

 “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."

I do note that laws were, as you pointed out, given to specific peoples and groups, as a gentile, a lot of those where not addressed to me. In the New Testament, the better covenant to do what the old could not accomplish, I pay more attention to, but I do not find myself obeying Jesus perfectly. I am glad He forgives, and paid for my sins.

I am decent at following the instruction of the apostles and elders:

 "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well."

Do you have some point which I am missing?

[steve morrow]

AND  FROM  BLOOD  ???

MINIMIZE  THE  WORD  OF  GOD  OR  TEACH  EVERY  WORD  OF  GOD

 

LUKE 4:4  and  JESUS  answered him it is written that --- man shall not live by bread alone  ---  but by every word of GOD ---

 

ACTS 20:26  wherefore I take you to record this day  ---that I am pure from the blood of all men---

--20:27-- for I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of  GOD

--20:28-- take heed therefore unto yourselves and to all the flock over the which the holy spirit hath made you overseers  ---to feed the church of  GOD  ---  which he hath purchased with  HIS  own blood

 

EZEKIEL 3:18  when I say unto the wicked ---thou shalt surely die---  and thou givest him not warning nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way to save his life ---the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity  ---  but his blood will I require at thine hand ---

 

HEBREWS 1:8  but unto  THE  SON  he saith thy throne  O GOD  is forever and ever a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom 

JOHN 3:35  THE  FATHER  loveth  THE  SON  and hath given all things into HIS  hand

JOHN 6:63  it is the spirit that quickeneth ---the flesh profiteth nothing---the words that  --I speak--  unto you they are spirit and they are life 

 

1 TIMOTHY 4:6  if thou put the brethren ---in remembrance of these things --- thou shalt be a good minister of  JESUS  CHRIST  nourished up in the words of faith and ---of good doctrine whereunto thou hast attained---

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

[Bawb]

Philippians 4:13 - I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength.

Do you or do you not believe this?

Now quit whining and complaining about the things you can't do. This is why YeHoVah kept the Hebrews in the wilderness for 40 years. Because they whined and complained about things they could not do.

Deuteronomy 30:11 and 12 - 11For this commandment I give you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12It is not in heaven, that you should need to ask, ‘Who will ascend into heaven to get it for us and proclaim it, that we may obey it?’

As far a changing the law, please to refer to Matthew 5:17. It's pretty clear when Yeshua told us: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but (the word but is a phrase referred to as an opposing conjunction. This means that the words or phrases before the word "but" will be in opposition of the words or phrases after) to fulfill them.

The word "fulfill" has also been a point of contention for people. They claim that it means that He abolished the laws. (The opposing conjunction proves otherwise). If you look at the word fulfill, it is translated from the Greek word ("pleroo" number 4137 in the GK Strong's Concordance) You will see the context of how this word is used in the following scriptures:

Matthew 3:15 - “Let it be so now,” Jesus replied. “It is fitting for us to fulfill "pleroo"all righteousness in this way.” Then John permitted Him. Abolish righteousness?

2 Corinthians 10:6 - and having readiness within to avenge all disobedience, when your obedience may have been fulfilled"pleroo". Abolish obedience?

Philippians 2:2 - fulfill "pleroo"my joy so that you may be of the same mind, having the same love, united in soul, minding the same thing. Abolish my joy?

Colossians 1:25 - Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill "pleroo" the word of God; Abolish the word of God?

2 Thessalonians 1:11 - To this end, we always pray for you, that our God will count you worthy of His calling, and that He will powerfully fulfill "pleroo" your every good desire and work of faith, Abolish your every good desire?

I can go on and on with examples, but hopefully you get the point.

Also, people claim that Yeshua fulfilled the law, so we don't have to.

Now refer to Matthew 5:19 - So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 19, He states that we are not only to obey the law but we are to teach it also. Despite the clear instructions of Jesus that we are not only to OBEY the law but we are to TEACH it also. There are those that not only do not teach the law but they teach the law has ended and even severely condemn and criticize those that do teach the law. Their response to this passage is that fulfilling the law brings an end to the law, that is, destroys the law. Have a close look at this passage and see what Jesus would be saying if this were true. Consider if this paraphrased version makes any sense.

Starting with verse 17, this is what Jesus would effectively be saying, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but I have come to DESTROY THE LAW. Now that I have come to fulfill the law and hence destroy the law, I am telling you that till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall, that is, not the crossing of a “t” or the dotting of an “i” shall in NO wise pass from the law that I am ending. And since fulfilling the law ends and destroys the law, I am telling you that whosoever therefore shall BREAK ONE of these least Commandments shall be referred to as least by those in the kingdom, and since I am abolishing the law, I am telling you that you are now to TEACH THE LAW also that I am abolishing.

    You have heard before that “THOU SHALL NOT KILL” but now that I am fulfilling and so ending the law, now I say that whosoever is ANGRY with his brother WITHOUT A CAUSE shall be in danger of the judgment and whosoever shall say, YOU FOOL, shall be in danger of HELL FIRE. You have heard that it was said by them of old time, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY” but since fulfilling the law ends the law, now I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has COMMITTED ADULTERY with her already in his heart.”

Can you say that this makes one iota of common sense or logic? Doesn't this seem like nothing more than a bunch of contradictory statements?

So indeed the law still stands. "The Law is the "Ten Commandments"And the Sabbath is the 4th of those Commandments.

Furthermore, when someone fulfills something does that mean it's abolished?

So when you fulfill your marriage vows, do you get rid of your spouse?

When a Soldier fulfills his duties, does that mean none of the other Soldiers have to do them?

This whole line of reasoning that the law has been done away with or "fulfilled" so we don't have to do it really needs to stop.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Bawb

[Bawb]

19 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Well, you'd have to tell be what those mean to you, before I could answer meaningfully.

Do you have some point which I am missing?

Brother, I am a man just like you. Please, ask what I think the commandments mean to me. In the case I could be wrong, test everything like the Bereans. What does it plainly say in the Scripture? Spiritual things can only be understood spiritually. 1 Corinthians 2:14 - The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I'm not sure what you mean by this: In the New Testament, the better covenant to do what the old could not accomplish, I pay more attention to, but I do not find myself obeying Jesus perfectly. I am glad He forgives, and paid for my sins.

The only difference between the Old and New Covenant:

The term Old Covenant does not actually appear in the Hebrew Bible. The Old Covenant is in contrast to a "new covenant" that is written about by Jeremiah in Jeremiah 31:27-40. So in order to understand the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, we really need to understand that particular text.

Old Covenant

Jeremiah 31:31-32 says, "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. It won’t be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt. They broke that covenant with me even though I was their husband, declares the Lord."

Jeremiah tells us exactly what the Old Covenant is. The Old Covenant is the Mosaic Covenant. It's the covenant that God made with the Israelites when he brought them out of Egypt. It is not the Abrahamic Covenant. It is not the Davidic Covenant. Those covenants were made with specific people. It's the Mosaic Covenant. The Mosaic Covenant was not made with Moses despite the name. It was made with the entire people of Israel.

What exactly were the stipulations of the Old Covenant?
Exodus 19:5 most clearly lays out the Mosaic covenant: So now, if you faithfully obey me and stay true to my covenant, you will be my most precious possession out of all the peoples, since the whole earth belongs to me.

Basically if the people obey the Mosaic law, they will be God's people. There are other places that talk about the Mosaic covenant all throughout Exodus to Deuteronomy, but the basic message is the same. Obey the law, and you will be God's people. You will be a "holy nation"

Exodus 19:6 - And unto Me you shall be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you are to speak to the Israelites.

This Covenant also included GENTILES as shown in:

Isaiah 56:7 - 6And the foreigners who join themselves to the YeHoVah to minister to Him, to love the name of YeHoVah, and to be His servants—all who keep the Sabbath without profaning it and who hold fast to My covenant— 7I will bring them to My holy mountain and make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on My altar, for My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations.” 8Thus declares YeHoVah, who gathers the dispersed of Israel: “I will gather to them still others besides those already gathered.

So what happened?
Israel broke the covenant. They did not obey the Mosaic law and therefore they were conquered by other nations. That is the occasion from which Jeremiah writes.

New Covenant

Jeremiah 31:33-34

No, this is the covenant that I will make with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my Instructions within them and engrave them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. They will no longer need to teach each other to say, “Know YeHoVah!” because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares YeHoVah; for I will forgive their wrongdoing and never again remember their sins.

Ezekiel 36:24 through 26 - 24 - For I will take you from among the nations and gather you out of all the countries, and I will bring you back into your own land. 25I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols. 26I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

Notice that the result of the New Covenant is the same as the Old Covenant. Israel will be God's people. The difference is the part about obeying Mosaic law. In the new covenant, Mosaic law will be "engraved on their hearts". The failure of the Old Covenant was that people disobeyed. In the New Covenant, people won't disobey. They will seemingly just do what is right and worship God from their hearts. In other words, the law would not be needed anymore. The law would be fulfilled without needing to goad people into complying.

Because of that, the way they broke the covenant in the past will be forgotten. God will forgive Israel and his people of their wrongdoing. The Old Covenant is renewed into the New Covenant. The context of passage also involves the reestablishment of Israel as God's kingdom. Cities will be rebuilt. Israel will be rebuilt as God's kingdom.

Jesus' interpretation of the New Covenant

Jesus saw himself and his death as the fulfillment of the promise of a new covenant. He saw that God's kingdom was coming. Luke 22: 14 When the time came, Jesus took his place at the table, and the apostles joined him.15 He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.16 I tell you, I won’t eat it until it is fulfilled in God’s kingdom.” 17 After taking a cup and giving thanks, he said, “Take this and share it among yourselves. 18 I tell you that from now on I won’t drink from the fruit of the vine until God’s kingdom has come.” 19 After taking the bread and giving thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 In the same way, he took the cup after the meal and said, “This cup is the new covenant by my blood, which is poured out for you.

So Jesus saw that specifically his death would bring about this new covenant. How or why? Basically Jesus' death would cause God's law to be placed in the hearts of his people and therefore bring about the new covenant. The new covenant was established by his blood. His death would cause people to turn to God in a way that the law wasn't able to do.

As an aside: The Old Testament and New Testament are named after the Old Covenant and New Covenant. The word for "covenant" in Hebrew, b'rit is sometimes translated "testament" or "testimony".

[Omegaman 3.0]

43 minutes ago, Bawb said:

Brother, I am a man just like you. Please, ask what I think the commandments mean to me. In the case I could be wrong, test everything like the Bereans.

Hi Bawb!

I only asked that because you asked about how or whether I obey or disobey commandments. I wanted to answer in a way that related to what you were fishing for. I could have said that obeyed them all perfectly, or that I violated them all several times each day. The truth lies somewhere in between the extremes. Just  where, I don't know, because I did not know what you even meant by the question.

Quote

The term Old Covenant does not actually appear in the Hebrew Bible. 

Of course not, it was not the Old Covenant until the New Covenant came to be. As the author of Hebrews wrote in chapter 8:

3In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Perhaps you see that through a different filter than I do, but to me that is not vague language.

You speak of needing to understand the old one, and I do not disagree. However, I think that the old one is best understood by looking to the further revelation of the New Testament which explains the Old Testament. You put new wine, into new wineskins, you do not patch and old garment with new cloth etc., the former understandings are incompatible with newer and more complete revelation.

If what you say is true, about the law being engraved on hearts, and it IS true, then you just need to know WHEN that has or will take place. When that occurs, there is no need to consult a bunch of old, tattered papyrus scraps.

For now though, I think the OT is useful to see the history of Who God is, and His dealings with sinful mankind.

Again to quote Hebrews:

 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 

Like I said, not exactly vague language!

[adamjedgar]

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

Thank you. 

So far, we have loving God and loving our neighbor as the requirements of the new covenant. I note they were also requirements of the old covenant, too. The old covenant contained the Law, and it is the Law we are trying to decide whether or not is a curse. You have listed the Law and it is the Law that may be a curse. Is there a problem saying the practice of new covenant is found in the old covenant law when the requirements of the law may be a curse? 

My question is simply and solely fostered by appy's question. I am NOT asking a randomly selected question absent of any context. So let's do a little review. We're trying to answer the question. 

Is the law a curse? 

And along the way this following was asked, 

Does anyone really think that as long as they don't lie, don't steal, don't commit adultery, don't commit murder and keep the sabbath, that God will look the other way when they sin in other ways? 

To which I think some clarification is warranted because we are new covenant Christians talking about the law, trying to answer one single simple question asked in the title of this op. I, therefore, ask, 

For the sake of clarification and context, would you please list the requirements of the new covenant God has established? 

 

 

Because the answer to that question will answer appy's question AND address the question the op asks.

 

Appy wants to know if we can really think God will look the other way if sinners do sin in ways other than those he listed, those stipulated by the Law. It's a great question but somewhat of an irony because the promise of God is... 

Hebrews 8:6-13
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.  For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.  For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.  And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.  For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.”  In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

In the new covenant God promises to remember our sins no more. 

So..... 

The next question is..... 

How do you, @appy view your answer to your own question with Hebrews 8:12? How do those of you who were following along with my inquiry view the two? 

 

Does anyone really think that as long as they don't lie, don't steal, don't commit adultery, don't commit murder and keep the sabbath, that God will look the other way when they sin in other ways?

I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.

 

 

I'll come back and weigh in on the op's inquiry.  

 

It is not the law which is the curse!

Adam and Eve and all of creation on this world were cursed when they "transgressed the law"!

The curse is death (the wages of sin).

 

This is an unusual question because normally the claim by  Sunday worshipping groups is that the law is a burden and Jesus has removed that burden by bearing it for us. 

Jesus did not bear the burden of keeping the law...he bore the burden of the weight of sin and suffered the consequences of it "IN PLACE OF US (justification).

It is a theological error to try to claim God's perfect law is a curse. To make that claim also claims the law's author [God] is also a curse (this is a logical truth....it cannot be refuted because of the premise of your question).

Clearly God is not a curse...the responsibility for bearing that is Satan, hence the laying of hands on the goat Azazeel on the day of Atonement before it is cast out into the wilderness!

 

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by adamjedgar

[appy]

Galatians 3:2,3
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?  Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

 

[appy]

There is nothing wrong with observing special days but, if anyone is counting on the Old Testament laws written on stone for salvation, then Christ is of no use to them. Yes Christ died for us you say? But then demand that everyone go back to following the law written on stone that never could save us, for if they could and worked, then God would have used them to save us and make us righteous.

Those who put themselves back under the law put themselves right back under a curse. In fact scripture says if you do so, you are “severed from Christ”,

Deuteronomy 27:26
 “Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out.”

 

The 10 commandments were not given to Christians, it is there for those who do not believe in or trust in Jesus. And to realize their inability do so. To put it in another way, the law must be there otherwise nobody will realize they need grace! Its purpose is to lead people to the end of themselves, it is there to push people, until they give up on the law and choose to rely on God’s gift of grace!

The law will never save anyone, nor will it make them a better person, whether they are a believer or unbeliever. It is simply there to show us how lost we are without grace. Jesus paid our debt in full. He fulfilled the law. Scripture says that the law was nailed to the cross with Him!

We wouldn't need to use the law as a measuring stick to measure what is right and what is wrong if we would just follow God’s voice, and trust Him with our lives, we would see the most marvelous changes in our lives. The only thing a believer needs, to live a holy life, is to remain conscious of the fact that God has fully accepted him or her as his son or daughter, making him or her a new creation and one in him, filled with the Holy Spirit.