A Prewrath Rapture question

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The thought that Jesus didn't know about the rapture is taking scripture further than it should go...He said 'of that day and hour knows no man' but he did not say he didn't know that there would be a rapture...He would have been intentionally misleading his disciples to tell them when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place if he really knew that the true disciples would not be here to see it...

What was the context of "that day and hour?" I submit the context is His coming to Armageddon.  It is not that He did not know of the rapture. He spoke John 14 about the homes He would go to prepare. What He might not have known is that Israel would reject Him and the Father would then turn to the Gentiles. 

WHO would see the abomination standing....? He ended that sentence with "let them that be in Judaea flee...

Since most of the book of Revelation did not happen in their lifetime, we must suppose that Jesus meant the generation that would see these things beginning...such as the generation that saw Israel become a nation once again.

Some people mistakenly imagine all or most of Revelation happened in 70 AD. I don't buy their theory.

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The link is the resurrection...it is one of the foundational principles of the Doctrine of Christ in Heb. 6...The resurrection of the dead is included with the other 7 principle doctrines, itemized as, 'Repentance from dead work, faith toward God, the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and eternal judgement...

So when we say the resurrection is the link, I am saying the sequence of event is what makes this clear...Paul specifically said the Dead in Christ would rise FIRST...so what needs to be done from this point is to find out when the resurrection happens and we know the rapture can not happen before then...

So the foundation of the resurrection is already laid...Paul said he laid the foundation and every man should take heed HOW he builds on it, not WHETHER he builds on it...so when we say 'foundation' we are saying the footprint of the house must be built to the specifications of the foundation...not make a foundation that fits the house...so if the foundation is 48' x 64' feet, then the house has to be 48' x 64' not longer, not shorter...

So when Jesus said all believers will be raised on the last day..he did not mean 'some' believers will be raised on the last day, and some other believers will be raised before the last day...' NO. He meant ALL believers would be raised on the last day...and if ALL believers are raised at the last day, then there are no other believers that could be raised at any other time...

Just like when Paul said 'We shall ALL be changed at the last trump..' he did not mean 'some of us will be changed at the last trump, and the others will be changed before the last trump...' NO. He meant ALL believers will be changed at the last trump...not some before and some at the last trump...

This is why Paul said 'I show you a mystery...' THIS is the mystery revealed...we don't need to look any where else...and what is this mystery? We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.

This contains the criteria...1)It must include ALL believers

2) It happens in an instant of time to all the saints...( it does not take 7 years to twinkle ones eye...)  

3) It takes place AT the last trump

So just briefly, one other major scripture you can pin yourself on about the day of the Lord...Acts and Joel specifically say 'the sun will be darkened and the moon turned to blood BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord come..."

This is contrary to how pre-trib describes it...for they say nothing has to happen at all before the Day of the Lord can come...it could happen at any moment...but according to scripture there MUST be certain things that happen first...one is the Resurrection of the dead...another is the sun must be darkened and the moon turned to blood...

This is what Peter was saying in Acts. 3:21..."Whom the heaven MUST receive until the restitution of all things which were spoken by the prophets...' He specifically said the Heaven must receive Jesus until the prophecies have been fulfilled...so right out of the gate we have an error in placing 1 Thess. 5 as an event that happens before these prophecies are fulfilled...what is the error?

1 Thess. 5 specifically states the Lord will descend from heaven...if Peter said the heaven must receive him until the prophecies are fulfilled, then Jesus can not descend from heaven before the tribulation starts. 

So Peter says 'The heaven must receive him until the prophecies are fulfilled...

Pre-trib say 'He will descend from heaven before the prophecies are fulfilled...

If the scripture in 1 Thess. 5 is actually pre-trib then it of course would not fit the description Jesus gave as to when the dead in Christ would rise...first of all not all the dead in Christ could rise, for there would still be saints who would later be killed during the tribulation, and also Jesus did not describe a two stage resurrection for the believers, but specifically said all saints would be raised on the last day...

There is much more to go over...Bless you and good to talk with you

 

It is OK if you believe all who love Christ will be raised on the last day. I choose not to believe that, because it does not fit with what Paul wrote.  Well, some people think Paul wrote false doctrine. I choose not to believe them too.

I cannot equate the timing of Paul's rapture (before wrath) with "last day." What then can I do? I have studied Paul all my life and cannot see "before wrath" any other way then before wrath.

John is very clear that God's wrath starts at the 6th seal. No problem for some - they just move the sixth seal to the last day! I find that impossible. I find that the equivalent of adding or subtracting from John's book. To me it would be ludicrous to rearrange John's numbered events.

Therefore, the only other verse where I can at least imagine some leeway is what Jesus said. After all, he was talking to Jews and it was long before God sent Paul to the Gentiles.

It is OK if you disagree.

However, if you believe you must go through the tribulation, then Hebrews 9:28 should concern you. Jesus will come the second time only for those looking for Him.

Suppose He does come pretrib? Can someone who believes in their heart that they will see the Antichrist be looking for (expecting) Jesus when He comes pretrib? 

[Last Daze]

12 hours ago, Biblican said:

You can't ignore the fact that they are described as candlesticks. In the context of the book, candlesticks only have one meaning and that is, they are churches.

They are very closely related.  The churches have candlesticks.  They aren't candlesticks in and of themselves.  Consider the following from the letter to the church at Ephesus:

• Therefore, remember from where you have fallen, and repent, and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and I will remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.  Revelation 2:5

It's a minor distinction but this verse shows a subtle difference between the lampstand and the church.  The lampstand has to have oil in order to shine light.  That's the ministry of the church, to be a light to the world.  If the light has gone out and that ministry is not taking place, what's the need for the lampstand?

I don't disagree that the churches are seen as candlesticks.  Revelation 1:20 tells us as much.  But they are only useful candlesticks in as much as the Holy Spirit (oil) is present in their ministry and their light is shining.  Lampstands carry out the ministry of the Holy Spirit.  

Have you considered the possibility that there will be two individuals and two churches being witnesses during the great tribulation?  That would reflect the natural / spiritual paradigm we see throughout scripture, i.e. the two individuals (natural) and the two churches (spiritual), carrying out the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Concerning lampstands and olive trees:

• Then he said to me, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel, saying, ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the Lord of armies.  Zechariah 4:6

The olive trees provide the oil.  The lampstands provide light.

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

So here is the quotes from Jesus...

John 6:39 - "And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day...

6: 40 - "...that every one that sees the Son and believes on him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

6: 44 - "No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

6:54 - "He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

So the criteria is plain to see this is not to be construed to only mean Jews...He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood is a New Testament commandment  which would pertain to all saints since it was instituted...

All those who are drawn by God to Jesus would also pertain to all saints and not just the Jews...as he said NO MAN can come to me except the Father draws him...

Every one that sees the Son and believes on him would also not be restricted to Jews...as many Gentiles saw Jesus and believed on him...

All those that God gave to Christ would include all the saints as well, as it states 'All thine are mine, and mine are thine...John 17:10

This is also confirmed as to who gets resurrected and judged at the 7th Trumpet...It specifically states when the 7th Trumpet sounds that 'NOW is the time of the dead...(Not 7 years before this, or after this, but NOW, i.e. when the 7th Trumpet sounded) So what does the 'time of the dead that they should be judged mean? It means they must first be resurrected...this is why Paul said we shall all be changed at the last trump...and then it specifically states who it is that will be rewarded...

1) To thy servants the prophets...

2) The saints...

3) Them that fear thy name both small and great...

These identifiers  can not be construed to  mean Jews. 'The saints' means 'whosoever does the will of God...' 'thy servants the prophets' does not just mean Old Testament prophets, for there are New Testament prophets as well...'them that fear thy name, both small and great,' also can not be construed to just mean Jews...as people in the Old and New Testament feared his name and its not just for the great, but for the great and the small, which would include everybody who was a saint...

The contradiction is that Pre-trib has the saints resurrected, judged and rewarded and in heaven before the tribulation even starts...but John places this resurrection, and judgment, and rewards at the 7th Trumpet...This is the last day Jesus was speaking of...it is not the last day that there ever will be, but it means it is the last day of this age, and then the 1000 year reign begins...

Blessings to you

You were doing fine until you mentioned the 7th trumpet. There you are off on a tangent. There is no resurrection associated with the 7th trumpet, nor is there any gathering. All there is  will be a property closing where property changes ownership. The truth is, the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven when the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is god. 

Just so you know, the last day of the age will come with the 7th vial, where it is written, "it is done."

God has marked the 70th-week with 7's: the 7th seal starts the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it. 

Agreed: it is not the last day there will ever be. The sun will remain in the sky and the days will continue for the 1000 years - at least.

Question: if one thousand year period ends and one begins at the 7th trumpet, and Jesus begins reigning over the kingdoms of the world then, at the 7th trumpet, how then to describe when He is anointed King? I guess we could say, "when Jesus begins reigning as King..."

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Oh, I am sorry...I thought that was a quote from you, but then I looked back and it was what I said...

But it is true...the Day of the Lord is a single day in which both the rapture / resurrection takes place...

This is shown in 1 Cor. 15 where it states 'we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.'

When it says 'we shall all be changed,' he means ALL of the saints will be changed at the last trump...the last trump does not sound before the tribulation starts...it sounds at the end of the tribulation after the first 6 have sounded....

If the last trumpet sounded before the tribulation started, then there could be no trumpet sounding in Matthew 24 when he comes at Armageddon...why? Because if it is the last one, then no more trumpets would sound after that and the last one would be when he comes at Armageddon...however the trump of God that sounds in 1 Thess. 5 is the same trumpet that sounds in Matthew 24, the same one Paul referred to as the last trump and also spoken of by John to be the 7th Trumpet...

The day Paul was talking about in 2 Thess. 2 is the Day of Christ, which is the Day of the Lord...(Jesus Christ is the Lord) but he specifically stated two events that would take place on that day...1) The coming of our Lord and 2) Our gathering together unto him...which means the gathering of both the living and the dead...the dead via resurrection and ascension, the living via ascension...but the resurrection of the dead must take place FIRST...so even though we don't know the day or the hour, we know there is a sequence of events...FIRST the resurrection, (placing the time frame at the last day) THEN the living are raptured...but both take place on the very same day...

Why is it you imagine the Day of the Lord as one 24 hour day, but most of the world believes it to be an extended period of time, starting at the 6th seal and perhaps extending to the end of the thousand years? Does this fact not give you second or third thoughts? Thoughts that perhaps you have missed something? Have you looked at the commentaries?

If it is a single day, why then would John begin the day at the 6th seal and a few days go by with no events to happen inside the Day? Why would Paul place the rapture BEFORE the Day? (The rapture in chapter 5, the Day in chapter 5)

I guess you know that Revelation was written LONG after Paul wrote. Paul knew nothing of 7 trumpet judgments. Paul did not mean "last trump" EVER. Put yourself in the shoes of those listening. He was writing to Gentiles that may or may not have any knowledge of Jewish customs. They would have been clueless about 7 trumpet judgments. However, they may have known of the Jewish Feast of trumpets. That was a feast where "no man knows the day nor the hour." This feast could not begin until two witnesses reported that they saw the tiny sliver of the new moon. Then, and only then, could the feast begin. What if it was cloudy? The moon may well be there as a new moon, but could not be seen. So they would have to wait another day. 

Could it be then that when Paul wrote "last trump" he was thinking of the final long trumpet blast that would end that year's feast of trumpets? That makes a whole lot more sense than equating it with the 7th trumpet of Revelation, which is a judgment trumpet: the third woe.

Therefore, I disagree: Paul's last trump (of a series not mentioned) will be just before wrath as Paul places his rapture/gathering. If we looked for "just before wrath" in Revelation, it then must be just before the 6th seal.

Have you studied the 5th seal? God left us a huge hint there of the timing of the rapture. He told those church age martyrs that judgment would not start until the full number of martyrs will have been murdered. 

Revelation is truly amazing: the very next thing John wrote is the start of Judgment: the 6th seal. So what would cause one church age martyr to be the FINAL church age martyr? Of course, if the church age ENDS, then one martyr would be the final martyr. The pretrib rapture will END the church age and START the Day of the Lord.

There is yet further proof this is the intent of the scriptures: John then got to see the just raptured church in heaven right after the 6th seal events and wrote it in chapter 7. 

This adds up to several witnesses in a row that the rapture will be pretrib. Perhaps this is why millions upon millions of believers are pretrib.

Take note that Paul did not write "last ever." He only wrote last. One of Strong's definitions says "last in a series..."

"he specifically stated two events that would take place on that day...1) The coming of our Lord and 2) Our gathering together unto him."

No, you only imagine that is what Paul said. It is not really what he wrote. 

Paul originally told them in person that the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day. Then He wrote the first letter emphasizing that the rapture would come before the Day.

Then they heard or read and were led to believe that the DAY had started and they were still here. Of course that would shake them up or trouble them. So they wrote to Paul.

Paul's answer in a nutshell: "No, you are not in the Day. To know for sure you are in the Day, if you see a great departing (the church taken out of the way) and then see the man of sin revealed, then you can know for sure the Day has come and you are then in it."

Did you notice that in 3b the man of sin is revealed?
Did you notice that according to verses 6-8 he cannot get revealed unless the restraining power is taken out of the way?

What does this tell us? Somewhere in verse 3a the restraining power holding back the revealing must be "taken out of the way." 

Some people imagine it is the falling away that restrains the man of sin. How could evil restrain evil? Since the theme of the passage is the gathering of the church, it just makes sense that somewhere in the passage Paul must show the gathering. 

He does, but disguised it in the word apostasia. Several of the first translators translated this word as departing. But it is not just any departing, it is THE departing. It makes a lot of sense that it is GOD restraining or holding back the revealing, using the church whom He has anointed. When the church is taken out of the way, suddenly the Holy Spirit has no people to use.

Therefore I find both letters of Paul in agreement, that the gathering will come just before wrath. 

Why else would Paul include wrath in his rapture passage? Why else write that God will set no appointments for us with His wrath?

Why else write "they" get sudden destruction, while "we" get raptured and get to live together with him?

How can anyone equate the Day of the Lord with the rapture? The day of the Lord is a DARK day of wrath and fierce anger. None of these words fits the rapture. They are connected, but it will be the rapture that will trigger the Day.

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, transmogrified said:

So here is the quotes from Jesus...

John 6:39 - "And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day...

6: 40 - "...that every one that sees the Son and believes on him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

6: 44 - "No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

6:54 - "He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

So the criteria is plain to see this is not to be construed to only mean Jews...He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood is a New Testament commandment  which would pertain to all saints since it was instituted...

All those who are drawn by God to Jesus would also pertain to all saints and not just the Jews...as he said NO MAN can come to me except the Father draws him...

Every one that sees the Son and believes on him would also not be restricted to Jews...as many Gentiles saw Jesus and believed on him...

All those that God gave to Christ would include all the saints as well, as it states 'All thine are mine, and mine are thine...John 17:10

This is also confirmed as to who gets resurrected and judged at the 7th Trumpet...It specifically states when the 7th Trumpet sounds that 'NOW is the time of the dead...(Not 7 years before this, or after this, but NOW, i.e. when the 7th Trumpet sounded) So what does the 'time of the dead that they should be judged mean? It means they must first be resurrected...this is why Paul said we shall all be changed at the last trump...and then it specifically states who it is that will be rewarded...

1) To thy servants the prophets...

2) The saints...

3) Them that fear thy name both small and great...

These identifiers  can not be construed to  mean Jews. 'The saints' means 'whosoever does the will of God...' 'thy servants the prophets' does not just mean Old Testament prophets, for there are New Testament prophets as well...'them that fear thy name, both small and great,' also can not be construed to just mean Jews...as people in the Old and New Testament feared his name and its not just for the great, but for the great and the small, which would include everybody who was a saint...

The contradiction is that Pre-trib has the saints resurrected, judged and rewarded and in heaven before the tribulation even starts...but John places this resurrection, and judgment, and rewards at the 7th Trumpet...This is the last day Jesus was speaking of...it is not the last day that there ever will be, but it means it is the last day of this age, and then the 1000 year reign begins...

Blessings to you

I find some flexibility in what Jesus said. The Greek word for day has also been translation as time.

Luk 9:51  And it came to pass, when the time  G2250 was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,

Act 8:1  And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time G2250 there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

"last day" could also refer to the Day of the Lord which would include a much longer period of time.

[Biblican]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Maybe candlesticks have two meanings. I won't put a lot of weight on one world that ends up not making a lot of sense. Everything else about their description tells me they are two men. That does make sense since there are two men that never died.

All those churches listed were Jewish churches that died out when God turned to the Gentiles. I have received no revelation knowledge of chapters 2 and 3 so I cannot comment on them with any authority. Some people imagine each church represents an age. I don't buy that theory either.  I suspect each church is representative of churches today. My guess is, God means for each reader to examine him or her self, and judge themselves.

Do you then expect that the Beast will kill all the people of both churches at the same time? Do you then expect all those people to be raised at the same time?

Another reason I find this theory false is very simple: the pretrib rapture will take out the church (all those born again) before the tribulation. How then can two candlesticks represent two churches?

A correct theory must fit all end time passages.

What then do you do with Paul's letters to the Tessalonians that show us a pretrib rapture?

I think that there can be two literal men representatives of the remnant church that is functioning at that time. Remember Paul said there would be an apostasy. One of my relatives had a prophetic dream that there would only be  very few left that were still faithful to the gospel. They were represented to him as evergreen trees. Philadelphia represents that church as she is seen cleaving to God's word.

The churches then were not just Jewish. When John had his visons Jerusalem had been destroyed and the church had spread to the Gentiles. The seven churches can represent the churches through the ages and we can see the apostasy beginning with the Ephesians then progressing to the end, but at the same time the seven can represent the spiritual conditions of the church in every age. Today a pastor can have people who harbor all of those conditions in one church. You have compromised Jezebel spirits, imbalanced Ephesians, Christians like Pergamos who have married foreign wives (doctrine), liberal Christians like Sardis who no longer believe Jesus is the only way, and lukewarm complacent Laodiceans, faithful, uncompromised Philadelphians and Smyrnans.

The tribulation does not begin until after the antichrist has polluted the holy of holies as Jesus said. Everything leading up to that is "The Beginning of sorrows" which includes a lot of natural disasters. The church will still be here during this time which I see as correlating to the warning period of the trumpets. The 144/two witnesses are taken up before the last trumpet sounds and the tribulation begins at the end of Rev. 14. We can see a lot of death going on in those passages. Only the faithful remnant is raptured, the remaining apostate church will go though it and there will be new Christians coming to the Lord at that time. Then the Lord returns. The Apostle Paul in Thessalonians is describing that pre-wrath rapture when the dead in Christ rise first at His coming, and all the remaining Christians that have survived the Trib are gathered. This will be the only time there will be no true Christians on earth. A lot of people confuse Paul's description as a pre trib rapture instead of the first resurrection, which is not the case as you have rightly observed.

[Biblican]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

They are very closely related.  The churches have candlesticks.  They aren't candlesticks in and of themselves.  Consider the following from the letter to the church at Ephesus:

• Therefore, remember from where you have fallen, and repent, and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and I will remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.  Revelation 2:5

It's a minor distinction but this verse shows a subtle difference between the lampstand and the church.  The lampstand has to have oil in order to shine light.  That's the ministry of the church, to be a light to the world.  If the light has gone out and that ministry is not taking place, what's the need for the lampstand?

I don't disagree that the churches are seen as candlesticks.  Revelation 1:20 tells us as much.  But they are only useful candlesticks in as much as the Holy Spirit (oil) is present in their ministry and their light is shining.  Lampstands carry out the ministry of the Holy Spirit.  

Have you considered the possibility that there will be two individuals and two churches being witnesses during the great tribulation?  That would reflect the natural / spiritual paradigm we see throughout scripture, i.e. the two individuals (natural) and the two churches (spiritual), carrying out the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Concerning lampstands and olive trees:

• Then he said to me, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel, saying, ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the Lord of armies.  Zechariah 4:6

The olive trees provide the oil.  The lampstands provide light.

Good insight. I always thought that there could be two literal individuals representing the the remnant church. It was interesting to me that the rejected five virgins in Jesus' parable are told to go and buy the oil for their lamps. Considering that at that time before Jesus' coming that the parable represents, the mark was in place, but the virgins could go and buy. Their oil went out because they had been duped into thinking it was okay to take the mark,.

[transmogrified]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is OK if you believe all who love Christ will be raised on the last day. I choose not to believe that, because it does not fit with what Paul wrote.

Not believing what Jesus said is not a valid response...there is no contradiction to what Paul said and what Jesus said...what Jesus said in John 6 is just as inspired as what Paul said...

Please show me where all being raised on the last day does not fit with what Paul wrote.

"Behold, I show you a mystery...we shall not all sleep but we shall ALL be changed, in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump."

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There is no resurrection associated with the 7th trumpet, nor is there any gathering.

Rev. 11:18 'Now is the time of the dead that they should be judged..."

The dead have to be resurrected before they can be judged...it is not true that no resurrection is going to happen at the 7th Trumpet...It is the time of the dead....meaning they will be resurrected and judged...and seeing the dead in Christ are resurrected and judged and rewarded at this time, it is not at all a stretch to say the rapture happens immediately after this resurrection as it states in 1 Thess. 5...'the dead in Christ will raise FIRST and THEN (or immediately after) we which are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the air..." this is the time stated that this would happen...at the 7th Trumpet, exactly in agreement with what Jesus said that all that believe on him will be resurrected at the last day...

The link only has to be made that Paul said the dead in Christ would raise FIRST, (before the rapture) the time of the dead is at the 7th Trumpet, it is also in agreement with Jesus saying the last day, it is also in agreement with Paul saying we will all be changed at the last trump. 

There is now all three elements of the foundation we are to build on as Paul said, We are built upon the foundation of the... 

1) Apostles- 1 Cor. 15 : 52 (Paul) All will be changed...

2) Prophets - Rev. 11:18- (John) He will reward his saints...

3) Jesus Christ - John 6:39,40, 44, 54 All that believe will be resurrected...

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Question: if one thousand year period ends and one begins at the 7th trumpet, and Jesus begins reigning over the kingdoms of the world then, at the 7th trumpet, how then to describe when He is anointed King? I guess we could say, "when Jesus begins reigning as King..."

Yes, you are correct...this is when Jesus begins to reign over all the earth...at his coming. 

That is what it states happens at the 7th Trumpet:

"Thou hast taken to thee thy great power and hast reigned..."

This is in accordance with Mathew 25 when it says Jesus comes ....it says 'When the Son of man comes in all his glory...THEN shall be sit upon the throne of his glory...'

When he comes, then he begins to reign on this earth...as other translations have translated Rev. 11:18-

NIV - "For now you have assumed your power and have begun to reign..."

ESV - "For you have taken your great power and begun to reign..."

RSV - "and begun to reign..."

NLT - "and have begun to reign..."

CSB - "and have begun to reign.."

Acts and Joel states 'The sun will be darkened and the moon turned to blood before that great and notable day of the Lord come." 

These events happen at the sixth seal which is just before the tribulation period ends, not before it starts...

Seeing that Acts and Joel's prophecies have not been fulfilled as of yet, the day of the Lord can not start before these events take place.

Seeing that Paul said 'the day of the Lord would not come except there come a falling away FIRST, and the man of sin be revealed...Paul was telling them these two things had to happen BEFORE the day of the Lord would come...If everything had already been fulfilled and he could come at any time, he would not have told them these things have to happen first...

It is not imagination that states he was talking about both the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto him:

'Now we beseech you brethren 'by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (Second Coming) and our gathering together unto him, (resurrection/ rapture) ....he then goes on to say that THAT DAY would NOT COME except there come a falling away first.  What does pre-trib say? It says 'THAT DAY (The coming of the Lord) and our gathering together unto him (the resurrection / rapture) will come BEFORE the falling away and the man of sin is revealed...

Scripture says 'Will not come before..'

Pre- Trib says 'Will come before...'

'Will not come before' , and 'will come before' are exact opposites.

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Then He wrote the first letter emphasizing that the rapture would come before the Day.

 Please show me the scripture where Paul said the rapture would come before the Day of the Lord. 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Paul originally told them in person that the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day.

Please show me the scripture where Paul told them in person that the rapture would be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord.

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Paul's answer in a nutshell: "No, you are not in the Day. To know for sure you are in the Day, if you see a great departing (the church taken out of the way) and then see the man of sin revealed, then you can know for sure the Day has come and you are then in it."

The departing Paul was talking about was not that the 'church was taken out of the way...' How ridiculous would that be for him to tell them that? When you see you are raptured then know you are in the day of the Lord? 

If the word 'departing' means that they would be raptured it would be the same as saying 'Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day (in which the rapture will take place) will not come except the rapture comes first...." Or in other words it would be like saying...'The rapture will not come unless the rapture comes first...which is nonsense...

The falling away is not the rapture...the falling away is the Greek word #646 in Strongs which means, 'defection, apostasy.' This is in accordance with what Jesus said...'Then shall many be offended (Strongs #4624 - 'to cause to fall away..to cause a person to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey, to entice to sin) ...and shall betray one another...and because iniquity would abound, the love of many would wax cold."

Paul is only saying the same thing Jesus said in Matthew 24 in different words. But it is not just that people are defecting from the truth...BOTH of these events MUST happen before the Day of the Lord comes...so not just a falling away, but also the man of sin must be revealed.

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

"last day" could also refer to the Day of the Lord which would include a much longer period of time.

Yes, the phrase 'last day' can refer to 1000 years and it can also refer to one single day depending on context...When it says the nations that are left shall go up to worship the Lord from year to year and to keep the feast of tabernacles, we know this happens during the 1000 year reign because of the context...it is an ongoing thing that occurs during the entire 1000 years...but when it says we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, we know this is not an ongoing thing that happens during the 1000 years, but happens on a single day...

We know from the sheep and goat judgment that at the time the goats are punished is the same time Jesus tells the sheep to "come and inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world..."  It is at this point they begin to reign with Christ for the 1000 years. They do not receive their crowns until this time...and according to Paul 'all those that love his appearing will receive the crown of life at this same day, as it states here:

2 Tim. 4:8 "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me AT THAT DAY (the same day all the sheep and goats are before the Lord when he comes to the earth) and not to me only but unto ALL them also that love his appearing..."

Paul is talking about the Day when Jesus comes WHEN Jesus sits upon the throne of glory as it states in Matthew 25:31-

"WHEN the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him THEN (and not before)  shall be gathered before him all nations...' This is where Paul and all the other resurrected sheep will appear and be rewarded...this is the same 'time of the dead that they should be judged' that John was talking about at the 7th trumpet when he would give reward to 'his servants the prophets, the saints, and to them that fear his name, both small and great..." This is the judgment seat of Christ. 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why else write that God will set no appointments for us with His wrath?

Of course we are not appointed unto wrath...the new testament does not cease to exist during the tribulation...the same verse 'he hath not appointed us unto wrath,' would apply to saints who are alive during the tribulation. Are they going to read that verse and say, 'Well, I guess it doesn't apply to us since we are in the tribulation? Of course not...God is not pouring out his wrath on his own people who follow him...his wrath is upon the wicked, not upon his saints...what does it say, 'Blessed are they who die in the Lord from henceforth...they follow the Lamb wherever he goes, they were beheaded for the Word of God and the testimony they held...why would God be pouring out his wrath on these people? He isn't...they are in tribulation, but tribulation does not mean wrath.

If tribulation means wrath then when Jesus told his disciples 'in the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world...' Did he really mean 'In the world you will suffer my wrath, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world? Of course not...God said we are appointed to tribulations:

1 Thess. 5:9 "That no man should be moved by these afflictions for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto..."

So here it explicitly states we are not appointed unto wrath, but we are appointed unto afflictions which means tribulation. He explicitly said to glory in tribulations and that tribulations work patience....but Pre trib says if you are in the time of tribulation, all of a sudden, tribulation now means you are under his wrath...this is nonsense.

There is a lot more to go over but this is probably too long already...Bless you- Gary

 

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Not believing what Jesus said is not a valid response...there is no contradiction to what Paul said and what Jesus said...what Jesus said in John 6 is just as inspired as what Paul said...

Please show me where all being raised on the last day does not fit with what Paul wrote.

"Behold, I show you a mystery...we shall not all sleep but we shall ALL be changed, in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump."

let's do a little at a time.

I believe every word in Red (Jesus' words.)  However, I don't believe some of His words pertain to me, a Gentile Believer. He sent Paul as the apostle to the Gentiles, so Jesus speaks to the Gentile believers through Paul. Both are inspired by the Holy Spirit and of course, by the Father.

By "last day" or "last time" could include the entire Day of the Lord. It could include the rapture just before the Day of the Lord.  In fact, to agree with Paul, it must mean that.  Why"

Because Paul was very clear that the rapture would come just before the Day of the Lord and the start of Wrath. 1 Thes. 4 & 5.

John is very clear that the Day of the Lord starts just before the 70th week. The Day starts at the 6th seal and the Week starts at the 7th. The 6th seal is a very long ways before the last 24 hours of the 70th-week. 

Therefore I cannot believe Jesus meant the last 24 hour period of time IF He was including the Gentile church of today in His statement.

Taking all of the end time passages together, a pretrib rapture seems to me to fit all the scriptures far better than any other scenario.

By the way, you capitalized "we shall ALL be changed..."

This cannot include Old Testament saints. We must qualify by identifying WHO Paul was speaking to and of. In 1 Thes. 4 we see that "all" here would be limited to all who are IN Christ Jesus - meaning all who are born again. ONLY the church will be called up just before Wrath.