Revelation 10

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Off topic is nothing more than a diversion from a direct answer, as you fully engaged, now your running

It appears you also deny a place of conscious torment for the wicked, hell/lake of fire, correct me if I'm wrong? 

Shalom, truth7t7.

Are you talking to me, to Josheb, or to yourself? You quoted yourself. (?) If you intended to edit your post, just click the elipsis (...) in the upper right corner of your post, and click "Edit." If to me, I'll wait for your response.

[truth7t7]

49 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, truth7t7.

Are you talking to me, to Josheb, or to yourself? You quoted yourself. (?) If you intended to edit your post, just click the elipsis (...) in the upper right corner of your post, and click "Edit." If to me, I'll wait for your response.

You have already identified as denying a concious place of torment, Hell/Lake Of Fire

I was asking Josheb,who runs from the direct question

Even though we disagree, I respect the fact that you are open with your belief when questioned, and not running and hiding

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by truth7t7

[WilliamL]

On 1/18/2022 at 5:31 PM, Last Daze said:

On 1/18/2022 at 1:01 PM, WilliamL said:

1 Peter 4:6 ...the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

 

This fulfilled Jesus' prophecy in John 5:

John 5:25 “Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

Once these men were redeemed and raised from the dead because they believed the Gospel, they were no longer liable for death; just as Jesus was no longer liable for death. (Those of the dead who would/could not hear the Gospel remained in the grave.) They could no more see corruption than could Jesus.

One more point: Matt. 27:52 is poorly translated in most versions, saying "many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised." The latter verb root is egeiro, which more accurately here means "awakened/aroused." That is, they were awakened at the death of Christ, but did not arise until after Jesus arose, so that He was truly "the firstborn of the dead." But OT saints were also delivered from the dead, probably on Nisan 21, the archetypal day of deliverance, when the Israelites crossed through the Red Sea during the Exodus. Jesus arose on Nisan 18, the archetypal day of the Firstfruits wave offering.

Good observation.  Do you think they are pre-Abraham saints or just OT saints or both?

Both. Peter seemed to be making a comparative point --"an antitype" -- when he singled out those from Noah's day, but Jesus made no such distinction in John 5:25.

[DeighAnn]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Okay, thank you for the clarification. HOWEVER, you're still taking a passage of Scripture that was addressed to one individual and applying it to another individual.

Hi Retro

I understand.  I am applying it to BOTH.  Please understand I believe there are duel meanings given to Scripture (sometimes more, considering God has been going at this for parts of eternity and heaven and earth may pass away but His words don't.  Think about it)  The king of Babylon has more than one meaning and addresses more than one person correct?  Where do you find the 'king of Tyre' walking in the garden of Eden?  Was he PERFECT all the days of his life till that one day?

I will believe that he is JUST a king if you PROVE that he fulfills all those other things written.  IF HE DOES NOT, then you will have proven to yourself that is incorrect and we are being told MORE than the average reader, we are being given information only those who take the time to seek for hidden treasures can obtain.    

d

[Retrobyter]

59 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

You have already identified as denying a concious place of torment, Hell/Lake Of Fire

I was asking Josheb,who runs from the direct question

Even though we disagree, I respect the fact that you are open with your belief when questioned, and not running and hiding

 

Shalom, truth7t7.

You're half wrong and half right. I do NOT deny "a conscious place of torment"; it's the Lake of Fire and Sulfur. The only thing I deny is an IMMEDIATE place of torment, commonly referred to as "Hell."

I simply believe that the person waits in the grave (or wherever his or her remains can be located) until one of the two General Resurrections. If he or she belonged to the Messiah, then he or she will be resurrected to new life, changed into being immortal and incorruptible. If he or she is NOT justified by God, then he or she will be resurrected at the Great White Throne for judgment and consignment to the Lake of Fire.

[DeighAnn]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This word "world" in verse 23 is the Greek word "kosmos" referring to being "out of this world-sytem of government or politics." He is NOT talking about being "out of the earth!"

I don't know how you come up with these things.  Where do you come up with POLITICS from those verses?  

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 8:13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

John 8:14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of Myself, yet My record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go;

but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

John 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

John 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

John 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

John 8:20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as He taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

WHERE could they not go that He could?

John 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because He saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

John 8:23 And He said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above:

a. above, in a higher place, (opposed to κάτω): Acts 2:19; with the article, ὁ, ἡ, τό ἄνω: Galatians 4:26 (ἡ ἄνω ἱεροσαλημ the upper i. e. the heavenly Jerusalem); Philippians 3:14 (ἡ ἄνω κλῆσις the calling made in heaven, equivalent to ἐπουράνιος, Hebrews 3:1); the neuter plural τά ἄνω as a substantive, heavenly things, Colossians 3:1f; ἐκ τῶν ἄνω from heaven, John 8:23. ἕως ἄνω, John 2:7 (up to the brim).

ye are of this world;  flesh, terrestrial, earth
I am not of this world. His world is spiritual, celestial, heavenly. 

You can tell me about the sky vs heaven and how the definitions of those words give you truth but FOR ME, it is the leading of the Holy Spirit where Truth is found and the definitions of words only come when I need to prove that leading is correct to someone else.  So we can't agree because you don't believe me and I don't see as you do. 
Like this. This came out of left field for me.  I don't know how many times I read what you wrote and I hope I may still be confused because I don't know any way, EXCEPT for the 'word definition' how this thought would ever come to you from reading this chapter.  

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins.

Politics?  world systems?  

John 8:25 Then said they unto Him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you but He that sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

John 8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 8:29 And He that sent Me is with Me: the Father hath not left Me alone; for I do always those things that please Him.

John 8:30 As He spake these words, many believed on Him.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in My word, then are ye My disciples indeed;

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe Me not.

John 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

John 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

John 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

John 8:50 And I seek not Mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you,

If a man keep My saying,

HE SHALL NEVER SEE DEATH.  
 

[truth7t7]

41 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, truth7t7.

You're half wrong and half right. I do NOT deny "a conscious place of torment"; it's the Lake of Fire and Sulfur. The only thing I deny is an IMMEDIATE place of torment, commonly referred to as "Hell."

I simply believe that the person waits in the grave (or wherever his or her remains can be located) until one of the two General Resurrections. If he or she belonged to the Messiah, then he or she will be resurrected to new life, changed into being immortal and incorruptible. If he or she is NOT justified by God, then he or she will be resurrected at the Great White Throne for judgment and consignment to the Lake of Fire.

You believe in "Soul Sleep"?

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

That's just funny .

 

There is no mention of hell in Revelation 10. I don't answer off-topic questions. The reason I don't answer off-topic irrelevant questions is because they are off-topic and irrelevant, not because I don't know the answers. 

Yes indeed...... This post has gone sooooo far off topic that I don't even know which road to take anymore......

[Retrobyter]

25 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Hi Retro

I understand.  I am applying it to BOTH.  Please understand I believe there are duel meanings given to Scripture (sometimes more, considering God has been going at this for parts of eternity and heaven and earth may pass away but His words don't.  Think about it) 

Shalom, DeighAnn.

One must be EXTREMELY careful to understand what the AUTHOR intended. Did Y'chezk'el ("Ezekiel") intend for the text to be about both? I don't think so. When people normally write, if one intended for it to be about two (or more) individuals, then he or she would have said so!

25 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

The king of Babylon has more than one meaning and addresses more than one person, correct? 

No, I don't find that to be true. God was telling Y'chezk'el to take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre! He didn't say ANYTHING about haSatan! He didn't even hint at him being in the mix!

If you're using this passage as some sort of subtle (perhaps, even subliminal) proof that haSatan was there in the very beginning with God, you're not getting the main point of the passage! It's a LAMENT about the king of Tyre!

If one understands that the original serpent wasn't created until Day 6 (Yowm Sheish), along with all the other beasts, then he or she understands that "haSatan" was a CREATED being, not some "angel" that's always been with God since eternity before the earth was created!

HaSatan was not there - did not exist - before Day 6, like on Day 3 when God made the dry land and called it "earth," and then proceeded to make the grasses, herbs, and trees upon the earth.

Was haSatan, the original serpent, in Gan-`Eeden (the Garden of Eden)? Sure he was. Did he "walk up and down among the stones of fire?" I don't find that ANYWHERE in the book of Genesis!

25 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Where do you find the 'king of Tyre' walking in the garden of Eden?  Was he PERFECT all the days of his life till that one day?

I will believe that he is JUST a king if you PROVE that he fulfills all those other things written.  IF HE DOES NOT, then you will have proven to yourself that is incorrect and we are being told MORE than the average reader, we are being given information only those who take the time to seek for hidden treasures can obtain.    

d

Well, I don't know how I'd be able to prove that he fulfills all those things written, but do I really have to do so, considering that the text SAID HE DID? Either you believe God's Word or you don't.

[DeighAnn]

14 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

One must be EXTREMELY careful to understand what the AUTHOR intended. Did Y'chezk'el ("Ezekiel") intend for the text to be about both? I don't think so. When people normally write, if one intended for it to be about two (or more) individuals, then he or she would have said so!

The AUTHOR is God.  The words are PURE.  I look at ALL the words of God as HIS and so because of that I am EXTREMELY careful to follow where the Holy Spirit leads and to understand what God is really saying.  

Psalm 12:1 Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.

Psalm 12:2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.

Psalm 12:3 The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things

Cut off all flattering lips
and cut off all flattering lips
They are two different things EASY TO SEE like Gods word is through the Holy Spirit.  


Psalm 12:4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?

Psalm 12:5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Psalm 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Psalm 12:8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that It cannot save; neither His ear heavy, that It cannot hear:

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear.

Isaiah 59:3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.

Isaiah 59:4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.

Isaiah 59:5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.

Isaiah 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.

Isaiah 59:7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.

Isaiah 59:8 The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.

Isaiah 59:9 Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness.

Isaiah 59:10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noon day as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men.

Isaiah 59:11 We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us.

Isaiah 59:12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them;

Isaiah 59:13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.

Isaiah 59:14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.

Isaiah 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.

IT SHOULD BE SO VERY DIFFERENT TODAY, SHOULDN'T IT?  

Isaiah 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

Isaiah 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.

Isaiah 59:18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.

Isaiah 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.


Why you feel you must warn me I don't know.  Since I depend on the leading of the Holy Spirit, I feel good.    Thank you for the love though,   I appreciate it.     d