Do you Think like Jesus or Yeshua?

[RGR]

What came first-the chicken or the egg? I guess it does depend a lot upon the perspective, lol!

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus' point was that there should be nothing in your heart to prompt you to sin in the first place. Sin is committed in the heart long before it is carried out in the flesh. That is actually very much a part of the Jewish perspective toward sin.

In Jewish thought, you should not only avoid something like lust, but it is also imcombent that others, particularly members of the opposite sex, dress in such a way that invites or tempts a person to sin. We should avoid our pre-disposition to sin AND avoid doing things that might cause someone else to stumble.

[Jake for Jesus]

shiloh357 wrote:

Jesus' point was that there should be nothing in your heart to prompt you to sin in the first place. Sin is committed in the heart long before it is carried out in the flesh.

My Response:

Jesus' point was that there should be nothing in your heart to prompt you to sin?

For my part, I do not believe that was the point Jesus was trying to make.

If there were nothing in our hearts to prompt us to sin? We would have no need of continual cleansing from sin.

Are there any among us who does not sin?

If there were nothing in our heart to prompt us to sin. There would be no one among us who would ever sin. This is why we have not only forgiveness of sins made available to us through the blood of Jesus (1 Ephesians 1:7), but also continual cleansing form sin made available to us through the blood of Jesus (1 John 1:7).

The Bible reveals these two facts about the human heart: (1) It is deceitful above all things. (2) It is desperately wicked. (see Jeremiah 17:10).

Edited September 14, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[EricH]

shiloh357 wrote:

Jesus' point was that there should be nothing in your heart to prompt you to sin in the first place.  Sin is committed in the heart long before it is carried out in the flesh.

My Response:

Jesus' point was that there should be nothing in your heart to prompt you to sin?

For my part, I do not believe that was the point Jesus was trying to make.

Is there nothing in our hearts as Christian believers that does not prompt us to sin?

Are there any among us who does not sin?

If there was nothing in our heart to prompt us to sin. There would be one among us who would ever sin. This is why we not only have forgiveness of sins through the blood of Jesus (1 Ephesians 1:7) and continual cleansing form sin made available to us through the blood of Jesus (1 John 1:7).

The Bible reveals these two facts about the human heart: (1) It is deceitful above all things. (2) It is desperately wicked. (see Jeremiah 17:10).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not to speak for Shiloh, but I think His point is a good one. Jesus was telling us that we should guard our hearts, because from it flow the issues of life (those are not my words by the way).

Shiloh was not saying that we can clean up our own acts, or that it is possible to live in sinless perfection. He was reiterating what Jesus taught. That sin begins in our hearts. So, if we want to work on dealing with a sin issue, we should attack it at its root.

So for arguments sake lets say we are struggling with sexual sin. If we simply attempt to stop the behavior without addressing the heart issue we will fail.

Shiloh was not denying that all have sinned. He was adressing the fact that as believers we have a new nature and are now able to begin the sanctification process. Part of that process is understanding where sin begins and how we can best deal with it through the power of the Holy Spirit.

[Jake for Jesus]

EricH, I agree much with what you said. Only I believe that we are also sanctified by the blood of the Jesus upon coming to faith in Jesus (Hebrews 13:12).

And thereafter if we remain faithful, keeping our position in Christ, and are committed to seeking the Lord daily in the Scriptures and in prayer, and take up our cross daily crucifying our flesh, saying no to our selfish desires, seeking to please the Lord and instead of ourselves. Then we will grow to be more like Christ, and in this way sanctification is a process and we are becoming more set apart to God.

Edited September 14, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus' point was that there should be nothing in your heart to prompt you to sin?

For my part, I do not believe that was the point Jesus was trying to make.

That was EXACTLY the point Jesus was trying to make. Jesus said that if a man lusts after a woman (not his wife) in his heart, then he has effectively committed adultery. Lust began in the heart before it was carried out in the flesh.

Jesus said the same thing about murder, as well.

We should not only refrain from physical acts of immorality, but we should not even be thinking about doing such things, either. It comes down to having a renewed mind. As we constantly give our thought life over to the Lord and present ourselves daily as living sacrifices, we are more and more each day, transformed into the image of Christ. The more our minds are renewed and washed in the word, the more pure our thoughts become, and as it is written, Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee."

Is there nothing in our hearts as Christian believers that does not prompt us to sin?

Are there any among us who does not sin?

Well, that misses the importance of what Jesus was doing. The Rabbis of old believed that Messiah Ben Joseph would be a teacher of the Torah, and a miracle worker as well. They believed that when Messiah would come, He would teach Israel the true meaning of the Torah. That is exactly what Jesus set about doing. Actually what Jesus was doing was restoring a proper understanding of the Torah. Some of the Pharisees and other religious leaders had perverted certain portions of the Torah to justify some of their ungodly activities and attitudes and Jesus was correcting their false teachings.

[Guest yod]

5) Sin is...

a) Wrong thinking.

b) Wrong doing.

Well, um, both! Remember what Jesus said about adultery-if you look at a woman with the THOUGHT in your heart, it's sin!

Well, it depends on what "thinking" means. In the case of your example, I would say the "thinking" is a "doing." The act or practice of one that thinks; thought (~from dictionary.com)

The "thinking" being described above has to do with beliefs, logic, etc. A way of reasoning; judgment (~fromdictionary.com)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's because you guys read the question in a hellenistic way. That's not what it's asking at all!!

Example;

One can have all the "thinking" parts down to a perfect tee yet be a living contradiction in their "doing".

I know this sounds like a real "duh" answer too

But what about people who do things in the name of Christ yet not in His same character?

Like the Protestants who readily accepted the bigotry of Martin Luther towards the jews or burned synagogues full of jews singing "Christ We Adore Thee"

Were they still christians because of what they "think" about God's idea of justice?

Or how about the Spanish jews who were killed rather than convert in the Inquisition? Are those Catholics still christian by virtue of what they "think" they were doing to glorify God? Is it possible that they were genuinely christians in their "thinking"?

To me, this question points out that there are ways of "thinking" which justify ourselves for wrong "doing" according to the commandments of God.

In my (probably controversial) opinion this is the biggest difference between hellenistic and hebraic perspectives

In the church world (overly generalized) one must "think" just as we do to be a member in our world. You can't be a baptist if you talk in tongues for instance...and the reverse is true for Pentecostals.

So their congregations tend to be of like minded individuals who can accomplish a lot because everyone is already on the same page with regards to what motivates our varies ministries.

And there are greater and greater areas of agreement in thinking that supercede denominations with labels such as Protestant....and/or christian...where denominations can network...but you are still labeled by the christian "think" stream you come from.

Generally speaking these denominational streams do not fellowship with each other based on superficial (imo) "thinking"

In the hebraic way, there are certain core beliefs that are unchangable but after that...hey it's a potpurri of interpretations that we enjoy the debate over. We kinda like people that don't think just like us because it gives us a good conversation. We still have some differences that will keep us from fellowship at a particular level but they are usually the very important tenants of the faith...like the deity of Yeshua for example.

There is an assumed eschatological view from member to member and from congregation to congregation but where it varies we don't make it a big deal. You have tongue-talkers sitting next to a nun next to post-tribber amellenialist next to Seventh Day Adventists next to a curious jew next to a woman that wants to be a preacher. It seems like we get ALL the rejects to our congregations sometimes.

and ALL are welcome!

But if your life doesn't add up to righteous living...it doesn't matter what you say you "think". And we tend to judge this by how you "do" the commandments of God more than anything you might "think"

This is why some messianics (a small minority) go too far in judging christians. They have confused righteous living as observing every miniscule regulation of the torah without understanding the greater picture of why the law was given in the first place. That's why we get accused of being "under the law"

On the other hand christians (a minority also) go too far in "thinking" the Law is void and their brazen neglect of "doing" the commandments of God seems to say they are not of the house of faith to a hebraic thinker.

I'm neither endorsing or denouncing either. Only hoping to show what I think is the difference.

[nebula]

EricH, I agree much with what you said. Only I believe that we are also sanctified by the blood of the Jesus upon coming to faith in Jesus (Hebrews 13:12).

And thereafter if we remain faithful, keeping our position in Christ, and are committed to seeking the Lord daily in the Scriptures and in prayer, and take up our cross daily crucifying our flesh, saying no to our selfish desires, seeking to please the Lord and instead of ourselves. Then we will grow to be more like Christ, and in this way sanctification is a process and we are becoming more set apart to God.

No one is denying this.

And that's not the point of what is being spoken about.

This is why some messianics (a small minority) go too far in judging christians. They have confused righteous living as observing every miniscule regulation of the torah without understanding the greater picture of why the law was given in the first place. That's why we get accused of being "under the law"

On the other hand christians (a minority also) go too far in "thinking" the Law is void and their brazen neglect of "doing" the commandments of God seems to say they are not of the house of faith to a hebraic thinker.

Wow! That just makes total sense now.

Thanks, Yod!

[Jake for Jesus]

Yod wrote:

On the other hand christians (a minority also) go too far in "thinking" the Law is void and their brazen neglect of "doing" the commandments of God seems to say they are not of the house of faith to a hebraic thinker.

My Response:

What exactly do you mean by having said the some Christians go too far in thinking the law is void? Please explain.

And why do you say they do not do the commandments?

There are various forms to use your term hebraic thinking. Which form of Hebraic thinking are you referring to?

Edited September 15, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Guest yod]

I mean the law is not void.