He that leadeth into captivity into captivity shall they go ???

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

 

Wow. 

Revelation 1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bondservants, the things which must take place quickly; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,  who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.  Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is at hand..............  Revelation 1:17-20 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.  Therefore, write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.  "As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches..................................... 

Revelation 13:1-10
And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.  And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.  I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;  they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?"  There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.  And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.  It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.  All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.  If anyone has an ear, let him hear.  If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints. 

 

The black-colored text in bold-face is the verse about which this op inquires. That verse occurs within the already-explicitly-stated-and-established-by-God context the events described happening quickly because the time was then at hand, and some of the events being already in the past, some happening at the time of the revelation, and some of them happening thereafter. 

Now as to Jeremiah 14 and 43 I will have to correct my earlier numbering because it is Jeremiah chapter 15, not chapter 14, Jesus is quoting in Rev. 13:10. Revelation 13:12 says, "If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed". 

Jeremiah 15:1-2
Then the LORD said to me, "Even though Moses and Samuel were to stand before Me, My heart would not be with this people; send them away from My presence and let them go!  "And it shall be that when they say to you, 'Where should we go?' then you are to tell them, 'Thus says the LORD: "Those destined for death, to death; And those destined for the sword, to the sword; And those destined for famine, to famine; And those destined for captivity, to captivity."'

Similarly, Jeremiah 43: states, 

Jeremiah 43:8-11
Then the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah in Tahpanhes, saying,  "Take some large stones in your hands and hide them in the mortar in the brick terrace which is at the entrance of Pharaoh's palace in Tahpanhes, in the sight of some of the Jews;  and say to them, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, "Behold, I am going to send and get Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant, and I am going to set his throne right over these stones that I have hidden; and he will spread his canopy over them.  "He will also come and strike the land of Egypt; those who are meant for death will be given over to death, and those for captivity to captivity, and those for the sword to the sword. 

Captivity
Sword
Famine
Death

These themes are not exclusive to or limited to Jeremiah (or Daniel or John's Revelation). They run through all the prophets, but it is Jeremiah Jesus is quoting in Revelation 13. Notice also the Revelation 13 text speaks about "the saints" and their faith, not Israel. We also know Daniel referenced Jeremiah because Daniel explicitly tells us so: 

Daniel 9:1-2
In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans—  in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

 

All the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 are explicitly couched in his effort to understand Jeremiah's "completion of the desolation of Jerusalem." Daniel was reading Jeremiah. Several centuries later Jesus quotes Jeremiah. There are in fact several references to the prophets in the first ten verses of Revelation. The opening verse mentions the beast of ten horns. This is traight out of Daniel and the text of Daniel 7. Almost on a daily basis in this forum and others we read Christians wondering about the identity of the beast. It's a pecular curiosity because the book of Daniel identifies the beast. 

 

Daniel 7:1-28 (excerpted for the sake of space)
In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel saw a dream and visions in his mind as he lay on his bed; then he wrote the dream down and related the following summary of it.  Daniel said, "I was looking in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea.  And four great beasts were coming up from the sea, different from one another. The first was like a lion.... another beast, a second one, resembling a bear..... and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it. After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.... I kept looking until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow and the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames... I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire.... I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. And to him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me.  I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things:  'These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth.  ~'But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.'  "Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,  and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.  "I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom. Thus he said: 'The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 'As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.  'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 'But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.  ~'Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.' At this point the revelation ended. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts were greatly alarming me and my face grew pale, but I kept the matter to myself." 

 

According to Daniel the beast with ten horns is a kingdom, not a person. According to Daniel these events occurred when the one like the son of man is given all dominion and authority . Reve. 13:1 is about a kingdom of the earth. Rev. 13:2 mentions the other beasts, the leopard and the bear. Verse three mentions the seemingly fatal head wound. Daniel's beast suffers a non-fatal head wound. The kingdom that is the beast suffers a seemingly fatal head wound.  Verse 4 = People worship the dragon because of the authority of the beast (which has a certain irony to it ). Verse 5 speaks of 42 months, which in a Hebraic calendar of 30 days comes out to 1260 days (42x30=1260) and we find the 1260 days in Daniel 12, which..... the angel of the Lord explains in response to Daniel's explicit request to understand the completion of the desolation of Jerusalem found in Jerusalem. And, for the sake of brevity , I'll close with the "Whoever has ears, let him hear," of Rev. 13:9, which can be tied to several prior mentions found throughout the gospels and the "ever hearing but never understanding" also found throughout the gospels, Acts, and Paul. This is a reference to Deuteronomy 29:4 and Isaiah 6:9, which - according to Jesus - came true in the gospel era. 

Scripture says otherwise. 

 

Daniel's (Little Horn)

This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and final judgement, as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

"Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

[Last Daze]

On 1/22/2022 at 9:21 AM, truth7t7 said:

The "Saints" overcome and killed are the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation chapter 11, not Christian believers as you suggest

When the (Two Witnesses) finish their testimony, they will be overcome and killed, as the final hours of earth's existence unfolds

Revelation 13:7KJV

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:7KJV

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

 

28 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Is all you have done is a word search and tried to bring association

 

Is that similar to when people do a phrase search and try to bring association?

[truth7t7]

1 minute ago, Last Daze said:

 

 

Is that similar to when people do a phrase search and try to bring association?

Smiles, the truth of scripture has been shown to you, and you are silent regarding response

Yes the saints being overcome in Daniel and Revelation are all the same (Two Witnesses)

[truth7t7]

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

Read it again. "Israel" is not mentioned at all. Jerusalem, not Israel. 

Who are "My People" in the verse below?

"Israel" your claim is false

As I previously stated, Jeremiah 15 is talking about "Israel" and Captivity

Jeremiah 15:7KJV

7 And I will fan them with a fan in the gates of the land; I will bereave them of children, I will destroy my people since they return not from their ways.

Edited January 25, 2022 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

34 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Who does scripture identify as God's people? 

 

1 Peter 2:9-10
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. 

According to Peter God's people are those of the new covenant, those "who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood." 

According to Paul God's people are, 

Romans 9:22-26 ESV
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory —  even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?  As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”  And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’ 

Paul is quoting Hosea, where we read, 

Hosea 1:9-10
And the LORD said, "Name him Lo-ammi, for you are not My people and I am not your God."  Yet the number of the sons of Israel Will be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered; And in the place Where it is said to them, "You are not My people," It will be said to them, "You are the sons of the living God." 

God had declared bloodline Israel to be covenant breakers (Jer. 11:10, ) and He promised to take make a new covenant and call a people who were not then His people His people. The New Testament tells us that new covenant is Christ and God's people are those who live by faith (not the law). Bloodline Israel were never what God meant when He spoke of His people. The author of Hebrews tells us, 

Hebrews 11:23-26
By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king's edict.  By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward. 

So we see that even before the Law was given the people of God were those having the riches of Christ. 

Scripture proves otherwise. 

Yes, and as I stated, there is no mention of "Israel" in Jeremiah 15. That is an observable, objectively verifiable fact. What you have done is move the goalpost from "Israel" to "My people" and then define the latter as the former when in fact NOTHING in Jeremiah 15 indicates that is true and plenty elsewhere in Jeremiah indicates nation-state Israel would be destroyed. You've assumed something not in evidence instead of doing what should be done: read God's word as written. 

 

The practice of defining Christian doctrine with Old Testament and old covenant conditions is backwards. The Old Testament informs the New Testament, and the New Testament explains the Old. To do the reverse is to Judaize Christianity. It is commonplace for modern futurists to claim to take the Old Testament prophecies literally when in fact they neither take the promises literally nor as the New Testament writers applied them. Instead, the proper term for what happens is called literalism, not literalness. 

The fact remains there is no mention of Israel in Jeremiah 15. There is mention of "My people," but that term should be defined as the whole of scripture defines it, not as the extra-biblical 19th century modern-futurist eschatology defines it. There is no mention of Israel in Jeremiah and the whole of scripture defines God's people as I have posted. This is all the more so when it is realized the Israel of God is His Son (Exodus 4:22; Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:15). 

Scripture proves otherwise. There is no mention of Israel in Jeremiah 15 and the mention of "My people" should NOT be assumed to be about the Jews or conflated to mean bloodline geo-political nation-state Israel. 

No "My People" below isn't the Church as you claim, it was long ago "Israel"during the time of King Hezekiah, very simple and easy to understand

Jeremiah 15:3-4 & 7KJV

3 And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the Lord: the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy.

4 And I will cause them to be removed into all kingdoms of the earth, because of Manasseh the son of Hezekiah king of Judah, for that which he did in Jerusalem.

7 And I will fan them with a fan in the gates of the land; I will bereave them of children, I will destroy my people since they return not from their ways.

Edited January 25, 2022 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

I did not claim it. I simply showed scripture stating it to be so. I did not add nor subtract a single pixel to anything I quoted; not a scintilla of added interpretation. Scripture states what scripture states and the word "Israel" does not occur anywhere in Jeremiah 15. Scripture does NOT state "Israel." 

It's a curious thing because you're arguing a verse that according to you says Israel will be destroyed. You're also leaving out the verses that include Jerusalem (vs. 5). Why is scripture being quoted selectively? 

Jeremiah 15:5-7
"Indeed, who will have pity on you, O Jerusalem, or who will mourn for you, or who will turn aside to ask about your welfare?  "You who have forsaken Me," declares the LORD, "You keep going backward. So I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am tired of relenting!  "I will winnow them with a winnowing fork at the gates of the land; I will bereave them of children, I will destroy My people; They did not repent of their ways.

Those who do not repent of their ways will be destroyed. Those of God's people who do not repent will be destroyed.

Jeremiah 15 is historical during the time of King Hezekiah, "My People" represents Israel during this time

God dosent destroy his Church, once a person is in the fathers had it's a done deal

Jeremiah 15:3-4 & 7KJV

3 And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the Lord: the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy.

4 And I will cause them to be removed into all kingdoms of the earth, because of Manasseh the son of Hezekiah king of Judah, for that which he did in Jerusalem.

7 And I will fan them with a fan in the gates of the land; I will bereave them of children, I will destroy my people since they return not from their ways.

Edited January 25, 2022 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

7 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Ma sure you're including verses 1, 2, and 5!!! Tie it in to Daniel, Matthew, and Revelation. Stop treating individual verses selectively and read whole scripture wholly. 

 

And stop repeating yourself. Argumentum ad nauseam isn't just lame; it does not further any discussion ever. 

Inability to further a discussion, is the inability to recognize that "My People" refers to the people that were under the rule of King Hezekiah which was "Israel"

Jeremiah 15:3-4 & 7KJV

3 And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the Lord: the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy.

4 And I will cause them to be removed into all kingdoms of the earth, because of Manasseh the son of Hezekiah king of Judah, for that which he did in Jerusalem.

7 And I will fan them with a fan in the gates of the land; I will bereave them of children, I will destroy my people since they return not from their ways.

Edited January 25, 2022 by truth7t7

[Last Daze]

On 1/24/2022 at 1:08 PM, truth7t7 said:

Smiles, the truth of scripture has been shown to you, and you are silent regarding response

Yes the saints being overcome in Daniel and Revelation are all the same (Two Witnesses)

Not true.  I responded twice and you replied to my responses.  Please don't bear a false witness.  Disengaging.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/274642-he-that-leadeth-into-captivity-into-captivity-shall-they-go/?do=findComment&comment=3465739

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/274642-he-that-leadeth-into-captivity-into-captivity-shall-they-go/?do=findComment&comment=3465347

 

[truth7t7]

45 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Not true.  I responded twice and you replied to my responses.  Please don't bear a false witness.  Disengaging.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/274642-he-that-leadeth-into-captivity-into-captivity-shall-they-go/?do=findComment&comment=3465739

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/274642-he-that-leadeth-into-captivity-into-captivity-shall-they-go/?do=findComment&comment=3465347

 

"Your claim is false" you did not respond twice "After" Sunday 23rd 7:52AM, and my post you reference is Monday the 24th at 11:08AM, neither of those links you provided of your postings are "After" my response on Sunday at 7:52AM

Edited January 26, 2022 by truth7t7

[tatwo]

There are a number of you that have become overtly cantankerous…in nearly any sub you participate in…it’s disappointing because some of these topics are both important and exciting.

It really doesn't matter what anyone says here...the division is unbridled…don’t fool yourselves as the Pharisee’s did/do…consider the picture of Christ you people paint here. No one can take you serious spiritually…you don’t even take each other seriously, you mock and taunt one another as children or the carnally immature. You present a visual picture of a beggarly people whose house is on fire, and things are dire and desperate.

What you are doing is a dead work…not Christ…it does not build the kingdom of God, but rather tears down yourselves and others…repentance is now required…or you will heap upon yourself exactly what you put on each other.

Tatwo...:(