Hell

[Guest]

This is a very interesting subject. Yes it is important to analyse upon what do we base our vision of hell? 

I am not sure and will think about this. What did Jesus say ? 

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Incorrect.  They were a part of most reputable bibles up until the early 1800's.  They were considered inspired scriptures up until the 1800's when they were removed.  They were apart of the KJV and Geneva bible that most of the reformation church used. Do your research. Early church fathers quoted from them to include other books such as the Book of Enoch.   Those that were for the removal of the scriptures claimed they were catholic forged documents that was until they were found in the Dead Sea scrolls intact and word for word long before the Catholic Church.  Jews considered these inspired scriptures and was apart of their canon of scriptures (Septuagint) which Jesus and the disciples used.

The Apocrypha / Deuterocanonical books teach many things that are not true and are not historically accurate. While many Catholics accepted the Apocrypha / Deuterocanonicals previously, the Roman Catholic Church officially added the Apocrypha / Deuterocanonicals to their Bible at the Council of Trent in the mid 1500s A.D., primarily in response to the Protestant Reformation. The Apocrypha / Deuterocanonicals support some of the things that the Roman Catholic Church believes and practices which are not in agreement with the Bible. Examples are praying for the dead, petitioning “saints” in Heaven for their prayers, worshiping angels, and “alms giving” atoning for sins. Some of what the Apocrypha / Deuterocanonicals say is true and correct. However, due to the historical and theological errors, the books must be viewed as fallible historical and religious documents, not as the inspired, authoritative Word of God.

https://www.gotquestions.org/apocrypha-deuterocanonical.html

Edited January 23, 2022 by missmuffet

[Jedi4Yahweh]

1 hour ago, Jayne said:

Jesus referred to the inspired Jewish canon as "Moses and the prophets".  There were no prophets when the Apocrypha was written.  The Apocrypha itself says that.

Hmmm...Where does the Apocrypha state this?  The Apocrypha was not written at any specific point in time. It is a collection of biblically authors over a long span of time going all the way back to the Prophet Jeremiah before the destruction of the first temple up until the Maccabees.  If you include the Books of Enoch it goes back before the flood.  There were many prophets after Jeremiah in fact the majority of writing prophets happened after Jeremiah.

1 hour ago, Jayne said:

I've said this countless times.  If you have read the Bible, then you know the Apocrypha contains lies and contradiction TO the Bible.  Gross, obvious, and many.  Either the Bible is truth or the Apocrypha is true.  Since they oppose each other, they cannot both be truth.

They do not oppose the bible but it may oppose your church doctrine.

1 hour ago, Jayne said:

The Apocrypha teaches:

• salvation by works

The book of James teaches faith and works.  Jesus taught faith and works.  John taught faith and works.  Just because you don't agree with it does not make it unbiblical.  Did you know the Martin Luther wanted the book of James, Jude, Hebrews, Revelation and some of Peter's and John's writings removed from the bible as well? 

1 hour ago, Jayne said:

salvation by giving of alms or money

Where does it specifically say that giving alms saves??? Jesus and all the apostles taught about giving as part of our walk with God.  Giving is a fruit of being saved and walking with God, but it does not save you and no where in the apocrypha does it say giving will save you.

1 hour ago, Jayne said:

pre-existence of souls before we are formed in our mother's wombs

Where specifically does it says this?   The bible does state that God knew us before we were born? God said he knew Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb. Was Jeremiah a false prophet?

Jer 1:5 NKJV - "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

1 hour ago, Jayne said:

paying money for the salvation of those already dead

This was a catholic doctrine and found no where in the apocrypha???  

1 hour ago, Jayne said:

prayers for salvation of the dead

Again, this was a doctrine in the catholic church and found no where in the apocrypha.

1 hour ago, Jayne said:

the Apocrypha itself admits there were no prophets of God when it was written [the "silent" 400 years between the Old and New Testament]

Where??? Again the Apocrypha spans all the way to Jeremiah and there were many prophets after Jeremiah.  Majority of the apocrypha writing happened before the 400 years of silence except the Maccabees which is not a prophetic book but a history book about teh Jewish Roman revolt.

1 hour ago, Jayne said:

• wives's sins are worse than a husband's sins and all sin originated from Eve alone
• that God created everything from already existing matter
• refusal to help one's "enemies" and holding back bread and help

Where???   I have never found any of these stated in the apocrypha.

However regarding preexisting matter:

Gen 1:1-2 states that waters which is matter was preexisting before creation.

Gen 1:1-2 NKJV - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.  

This was before day 1 of creation.

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Jayne]

6 minutes ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Yes,  the Book of Enoch was and is in the Septuagint.  Jude quotes direct from it.

The LXX never contained the book of Enoch.

How do you know that Jude and whoever wrote the book or books of Enoch between the Old and New Testament were not both citing someone else or Jewish oral tradition about Enoch?  It's JUST was plausible.

I have read the Bible.

I have read all three books of Enoch

The contradictions, ridiculous and outlandish historical goofs, and outright lies from the author/authors of Enoch and more are incredulous.

To be honest, the books of Enoch reads, in part, like a spoof.  Purposefully wrong for a joke.  The things that the book of Enoch teach about the REAL Enoch, Noah, Moses, demons, angels, God Lamech, Methuselah and more DO NOT MATCH the Bible.

Just two examples:

• The Bible says that Noah built the ark.  Enoch says angels built the ark.
• The Bible says that God took Enoch and he was seen no more.  Enoch says that everyone knew where he was - living with the fallen angels at their request, petitioning God on their behalf with a written document to spare them.  Lamech was scared when Moses was born because he believed Moses NOT to be a man, but an angel.  He ran to his father, Methuselah and begged him to find Enoch and ask about all this.  People told Methuselah where Enoch was and he went to him to have a talk with him.

You see, I've read both - the Bible and the books of Enoch.

How a person can know the Bible like the back of their hand and cling to the book of Enoch is beyond my understanding.  

 

 

 

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Jews considered these inspired scriptures and was apart of their canon of scriptures (Septuagint) which Jesus and the disciples used.

This simply scholastically not true... you also signed the statement of faith of this place which you now are violating...  We here do not nor ever have agree with your statement!

[debrakay]

This site is called Worthy Christian Forums for a purpose.  If it was just called Worthy Forums I would not be making this remark.  This forum is for like-minded Christians to share, fellowship and discuss biblical topics.  The Muslim religion is not here to share and fellowship.  The Hindu religion is not here to share and fellowship.  The Buddhist religion and so on is not here to share and fellowship.  Even the Jewish religion is not here to share and fellowship.  You get my point?  This is a Christian site.  Personally I have no problem with the people of other religions on other sites but I do not want them involved in my Christian conversations and Christian beliefs on a Christian website.  We all know how religious wars start.

 

[Alive]

18 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

This simply scholastically not true... you also signed the statement of faith of this place which you now are violating...  We here do not nor ever have agree with your statement!

Which? that the LXX didn't include those writings or that Jesus and the disciples didn't read them or were aware of them?

[Alive]

4 minutes ago, debrakay said:

This site is called Worthy Christian Forums for a purpose.  If it was just called Worthy Forums I would not be making this remark.  This forum is for like-minded Christians to share, fellowship and discuss biblical topics.  The Muslim religion is not here to share and fellowship.  The Hindu religion is not here to share and fellowship.  The Buddhist religion and so on is not here to share and fellowship.  Even the Jewish religion is not here to share and fellowship.  You get my point?  This is a Christian site.  Personally I have no problem with the people of other religions on other sites but I do not want them involved in my Christian conversations and Christian beliefs on a Christian website.  We all know how religious wars start.

 

Why are you saying these things. I am not sure where you are coming from.

[Jayne]

1 hour ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Hmmm...Where does the Apocrypha state this?  The Apocrypha was not written at any specific point in time. It is a collection of biblically authors over a long span of time going all the way back to the Prophet Jeremiah before the destruction of the first temple up until the Maccabees.  If you include the Books of Enoch it goes back before the flood.  There were many prophets after Jeremiah in fact the majority of writing prophets happened after Jeremiah.

They do not oppose the bible but it may oppose your church doctrine.

The book of James teaches faith and works.  Jesus taught faith and works.  John taught faith and works.  Just because you don't agree with it does not make it unbiblical.

Where does it specifically say that giving alms saves??? Jesus and all the apostles taught about giving as part of our walk with God.  Giving is a fruit of being saved and walking with God, but it does not save you and no where in the apocrypha does it say giving will save you.

Where specifically does it says this?   The bible does state that God knew us before we were born? God said he knew Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb. Was Jeremiah a false prophet?

Jer 1:5 NKJV - "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

This was a catholic doctrine and found no where in the apocrypha???  

Again, this was a doctrine in the catholic church and found no where in the apocrypha.

Where??? Again the Apocrypha spans all the way to Jeremiah and there were many prophets after Jeremiah.  Majority of the apocrypha writing happened before the 400 years of silence except the Maccabees which is not a prophetic book but a history book about teh Jewish Roman revolt.

Where???   I have never found any of these stated in the apocrypha.

OK... I should have given you the citations in the first place.  Will you be open-minded?

Oh, and the REAL Enoch did not write the "books" of Enoch.

1.  The teaching, by angels to man, of using seemingly magical arts to rid a person of demons.

"Then the angel said to him: Take out the entrails of this fish, and lay up his heart, and his gall, and his liver for thee. For these are necessary for useful medicines. . . . Then Tobias asked the angel, and said to him: I beseech thee, brother Azarias, tell me what remedies are these things good for, which thou hast bid me keep of the fish? And the angel, answer­ing, said to him: If thou put a little piece of its heart upon coals, the smoke thereof driveth away all kind of devils, either from man or from woman, so that they come no more to them." Tobias 6:5-8

 

2.  The giving of charitable monies can deliver from sin:

"Prayer is good with fasting and alms : more than to lay up treas­ures of gold: for alms delivereth from death: and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting." Tobias 12:8-9

 

3,  The dead being saved AFTER their death by the prayers of the living and MONIES giving by the living.  Jesus Christ is not necessary at ALL!

"And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resur­rection, (for if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead.) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godli­ness had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."  2 Maccabees 12:43-46

 

4. Purgatory - [Where do you think Catholic got this idea?]

"But the souls of the just are in the hand of God : and the torment of death shall not touch them. In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die : and their departure was taken for misery. And their going away from us, for utter destruction : but they are in peace. And though in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality."   Wisdom 3:1-4

 

5.  Selfish behavior to an enemy.  [The polar opposite of what Jesus said.]

"Give not to the un­godly: hold back thy bread, and give it not to him."  Ecclesiasticus 12:6

Jesus said to turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and the Old Testament says in Proverbs 25 to feed and take care of your enemy and God will reward you.  Also, there's the good Samaritan who took care of his enemy......

 

6.  Sin is all laid on Eve alone and a wife's sin is worse than the husbands 

"Sin began with a woman, and we must all die because of her."  Sirah 25:24

"From garments cometh moths and from women wickedness.  Better is the churlishness of a man than a courteous woman, a woman, I say, which brings shame and reproach." Sirah 42:13-14

 

 

7.  Our souls pre-existed our fleshly bodies.

"As a child I was naturally gifted, and a good soul fell to my lot; or rather, being good, I entered an undefiled body."  Wisdom 8:19-20

 

 

8.  God created everything out of already existent matter.

"For your all-powerful hand, which created the world out of formless matter, did not lack the means to send upon them a multitude of bears, or bold lions." Wisdom 11:17

 

9.  There were no prophets during the writings of the Apocrypha - stated by Maccabees, itself.

“So they tore down the altar, and stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until there should come a prophet to tell what to do with them.” 1 Maccabees 4:45b-46.

“Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.” 1 Maccabees 9:27.

“And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise…” 1 Maccabees 14:41.

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Jayne

[debrakay]

3 minutes ago, Alive said:

Why are you saying these things. I am not sure where you are coming from.

Sorry to be confusing.  I believe it is important during discussion to stick with biblical scripture and not venture off to "other writings" to determine the objective of seeking truth.  We either all believe the Bible is the inspired word of God or not.  Venturing off the path of biblical scripture leads to many unhealthy conversations and become stumbling blocks to others.  One cannot use the apocryphal books when "quoting scripture" otherwise every non-Christian religion could be involved in the discussion of truth. 

Again, sorry if I was off topic.  I believe in the discussion of "Hell" we need to keep only with what the Holy Bible says.