Hell

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, Alive said:

Let me ask a question that may shed some light on this--Lord willing.

How is it that we who were born 2000 years after the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension, are/were included in those 'historical events' as scripture teaches us?

Why then, is it difficult to understand that those who were born and lived 2000 years before the 'Cross, Resurrection and Ascension' not also included in those 'historical' events?

We died in Him, were raised with him and reside In Him...this is what scripture teaches us.

Something to ponder.

Christ and His work is ever present.

 

We believe after the fact and that is Jesus has died for the whole world the just and the unjust.

We believe that Jesus Christ died for the whole world, not just for the world that was infront of him and the one to come. 

We believe also that he died for all the world which was before him.

Are you not wondering whom God had appointed to preach the Gospel? The answer could be "no I am not, the Comission to preach the Gospel was given to the disciples to preach faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

Are you not wondering that in the great commission the places of the dead are not included. 

The disciples were not to preach the Gospel to their progenitors or to the rest of the people who had died before them. To all the people of the world who had died before the Cross.  

And what about the people who died after the Cross without the knowledge of the Gospel who will preach the Gospel to them.  

You know that anyone who was ever born stands judgement before Jesus Christ according to his faith in him or not.

That is telling us that Jesus Christ cannot Judge anyone who has not given the chance to have register in him faith in him or denial in him.

For Jesus Christ to judged those who died before him they must have heard the Gospel because they will be judged according to their desition to accept the message and believe or to deny the message. 

Whom God had sent to them to preached the Gospel to them?

This group of people cannot be judged on their desition to believe or deny unless the Gospel was preached to them after the fact. When Jesus Christ said "it is done". 

 

[FrankIeCip]

I agree there will be fire, judgement, etc. The unsaved will KNOW what they are missing out on. It will be torment, but it will not last forever as Hobie and others have shown so well. I take that as a blessing to know any of my loved ones who are not written in the book of life will not suffer forever. They will suffer, just not for eternity. Praise God. How much more do you want to to love and serve Him knowing this?! The love and mercy of God is amazing. Again, praise Him! 🙏🏼

[Your closest friendnt]

31 minutes ago, FrankIeCip said:

I agree there will be fire, judgement, etc. The unsaved will KNOW what they are missing out on. It will be torment, but it will not last forever as Hobie and others have shown so well. I take that as a blessing to know any of my loved ones who are not written in the book of life will not suffer forever. They will suffer, just not for eternity. Praise God. How much more do you want to to love and serve Him knowing this?! The love and mercy of God is amazing. Again, praise Him! 🙏🏼

At least you are not hiding your reasons. 

But why have you Judge them? 

Is it because their guidance was from the Moslem persuasion? 

[Hobie_]

On 2/18/2022 at 11:33 AM, Starise said:

This verse finds a partner here-

Isaiah 66:24

“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

These verses open up a whole "can of worms" .

Isaiah 66:24 along with the verbal visuals are descriptive of Gehenna, that place which was once the place errant Israelites sacrificed their children to Moloch. Later on, after that place was removed it became a place of refuse for dead animals and the like. A garbage dump outside of the city. The fire there was always burning and yes, there were worms or maggots feeding on what was there. Not a particularly pleasant place to hang out. Real estate values on that side of the city were likely much lower.

It is notable this is the last verse in Isaiah and a reminder that Israel would eventually see the end of her enemies.

Several commentators in commenting on Mark 9:48 indicate that the imagery posed paints rather a picture of the suffering of the wicked and not so much a literal picture of the lake of fire.

Due to this being a WOT I will only link to biblehub commentaries HERE.

Emphasis mine.

Me as well.

My reasoning, which I am willing to admit could be flawed, tells me that if we are comparing the two deaths there would necessarily need to be similarities between the two, or else why bring them up together?

The first death is physical death which is a finality. The bible tells us we won't see the second death if we are covered under the blood, some people WILL see the second death. The second finality which if compared to the first, is a once and done thing. The only difference being we had potential to be rescued from the first death through the gift of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 

Those who get to the second death as lost will be much less fortunate.

The thing is, God doesnt want anyone to suffer as some of these commentators try to say, but they must be punished and the second death is the ultimate punishment. The wicked will not return from it nor live eternally in any way, and sin will be gone from the universe.

[Starise]

1 hour ago, Hobie_ said:

The thing is, God doesnt want anyone to suffer as some of these commentators try to say, but they must be punished and the second death is the ultimate punishment. The wicked will not return from it nor live eternally in any way, and sin will be gone from the universe.

And I think we are on the same page here both literally and figuratively.

[Prycejosh1987]

Hell is a problem not because of who will be there, but because its a wasting away. Imagine spending all eternity suffering and seeing a thick blackness and smoking from a fire. What would hurt the most is the fact that the devil and the demons which completely and utterly hate us, will be with us for all eternity. That is scary. But i want to go heaven because Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit and Father will be there. Inspirational people are in heaven. 

[Boy15Boy]

I think people overcomplicate it and its really fairly simple. God created humans so that we would worship him and that's what we will be doing for eternity in Heaven while kneeling before him. Anyone who doesn't believe and doesn't want to worship serves no purpose in Heaven, they are no use to God so they are not permitted entry. God doesn't want people who don't want to worship him and they don't want to be there anyway. He gives us a choice and doesn't force anyone to be with him if they don't want to be, everyone is free to serve him or reject him.

Unfortunately he can't allow rejection to go unpunished and the punishment for it is eternal separation from the LORD which the person suffering the punishment will eventually come to realise  the severity of and what they missed out on and there is no forgiveness and no second chance. Imagine being lost for eternity knowing there will never be salvation, ever? That's the punishment. As harsh as the punishment may seem i think people in hell eventually come to understand that the punishment is what they deserve, they rejected God first and so he rejects them in return. God's judgement will be fair...hard but fair.

In the bible God is frequently seen handing out severe punishments (setting a bear on 42 boys to maul them to death is one i always remember, probably because i am a boy myself and that one really scared me). While the punishments may seem brutal every single one of them is fair and deserved. People therefore are aware that while God is a good. loving and merciful God he is also a God who will punish severely those who deserve it and the punishment won't be a slap on the wrist.

Everyone who gets punished will come to understand why they are being punished. That's why they will be weeping and gnashing their teeth. Not because they are burning in flames but because they are weeping in sorrow, remorse and regret.

Judgement day will be a day of horror for many and they will be kneeling before the LORD grovelling but it will be too late.

Those of us who are saved will be lying face down on the ground in humble worship. praising our loving and forgiving LORD, who we will worship for eternity for saving us. 

[JohnD]

On 1/21/2022 at 9:48 PM, Starise said:

I know I'm probably going to get burned for bringing this up again ( pun intended this time).

I wanted to have a discussion on Hell as translated in scripture and specifically as it relates to the place that both men and angels go to.

 

The general concept of hell isn't mentioned in the OT. Adam's curse was death and hard work to survive. Nothing was specifically mentioned in that text about hell. 

 

Hell was multi purposed for men since the bible says it was created for the devil and his angels. On one hand it can be seen that even though Hell is an eternal place made for eternal beings, the angels....... men not under the blood of Christ will go there as well.

 

Alongside the biblical ideas on hell there are parallel ideas coming from ancient pagan religions originating from Babylon. Sometimes these ideas get mingled into Christian discussions on  biblical hell and can skew our ideas on the place.

 

The idea that hell wasn't originally made for men seems to indicate a plan B. Most likely hell simply serves two purposes very well. I believe there are two different outcomes.

 

Many will read certain passages and make foregone conclusions about them. Let's take "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". This passage clearly references men and not angels in the text example. Most conclude this is taking place in hell and use this as the reason they think hell tortures men eternally. In reality the passage refers to a whole process that involves standing before the Lord in judgement, receiving a judgement from him and being taken to hell by the angels because no one is going to go there of their own accord. "weeping and gnashing of teeth" can be happening during the process BEFORE they are thrown in.

 

The wicked are compared to chaff and are snuffed out. There are so many reasons for this I can't cover all of them in the first post.

 

God is good, God is just, God is fair. God is merciful. We are commanded to love our enemies. What example does God set here? 

 

 

 

 

 

The pit is a reference to Sheol in the Old Testament (Numbers 16:30-33 / Job 17:16 / Job 33:18-30 / Psalm 28:1 / Psalm 30:1-9 / Psalm 55:23 / Psalm 69:15 / Psalm 88:4 / 94:13 / 143:7 / Proverbs 1:12 / Proverbs 28:17 / Isaiah 14:15-19 / Isaiah 24:17-22 / Isaiah 30:14 / Isaiah 38:17-18 / Isaiah 51:1-14 and:

Isaiah 66:24 (AV)
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

5 more references in Jeremiah

9 more in Ezekiel

Zechariah 9:11

other than these, no the OT doesn't say much about hell...

 

[JohnD]

Luke 16:19–31 (AV)
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Mark 9:44–48 (AV)
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Revelation 20:10–15 (AV)
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

No, there really isn't much to go on about hell. Just another evangelists' invention to scare people...

Yeah right!

[JohnD]

This same mindset is at the heart of the Preterist heresy. Let's just pretend the tribulation and hell don't exist.