The Last trump

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

The rapture is not a reward. It can put one in a position to receive a reward, but it's not a reward in itself. 

True. That is the allusion. Taken to receive the reward. How? Through the gathering.

21 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

What if we are raptured to the stellar heavens? Is any reward waiting for us in the stellar heavens? The reward is being with the Lord. And we know the Lord resides in the third heaven.

From what I see:

1 Thess 4:

"17Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Then in Rev there is the great multitude. So wherever this location is I do not know for sure. I only know what is written and that says we will be caught up to the clouds, meet the Lord in the air, then we also appear in heaven about the throne. 

21 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18(NKJV)(emphasis mine) - 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

There's some reward in this life though.

Luke 18:29-30(NKJV) - 29 So He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.”

God bless.

Amen.

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I guess I have to go with a last trump being an actual last trump and not a last trump in a series of last trumps. How would we know it's the last? Only one way; if we know there is a finite series of trumps and how many, what they are associated with, and when they are set to sound. 

I understand the rationale.  I've looked at it a few different ways as well.  The seven angels are given trumpets.  The trump of God is unique to God. 

• For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  1 Thess 4:16

This is a picture of the seventh angel sounding his trumpet (shout), the Lord descending to the clouds with the trumpet of God.  So while the last trumpet sounds at the seventh trumpet, it's not the seventh trumpet.

For me, the connection between a resurrection resulting from hearing His voice and a resurrection at the last trump is too strong to ignore.  That makes the last trumpet the voice of His resurrection authority.

What makes it the "last" trumpet is that after every mortal has been resurrected and the last enemy, death, is thrown into the lake of fire, rebellion is no more.  There is no more need to speak authoritatively as God's authority is a foregone conclusion in the new heaven and new earth where righteousness dwells.

[transmogrified]

On 2/8/2022 at 2:39 PM, kenny2212 said:

The purpose of this thread is to address the question of whether the last trump mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51 is the same as the seventh trumpet sounded by an angel in Revelation 11:15-19.

 The resurrection of the dead, both good and bad  happens at the 7th Trumpet, as quoted in part here:

  Rev. 11:15: And the seventh angel sounded...

1) The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ

2) The time of the dead that they should be judged...

3) Thou should give rewards to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints and to them that fear thy name both small and great...

There are other things mentioned in the above scripture, but I am focusing on 3 things in this setting:

1) The time is when the Lord sets up his kingdom on the earth, which is at the end of this age, which of course is at the Second Coming, also known as the Last Day, or the Harvest. 

2) 'The Dead' in this context is not just the righteous dead, and not just the wicked dead, but rather is both the good and bad. Jesus said the hour comes when ALL that are in the graves (both good and bad) will hear his voice and come forth. There is not one voice for the righteous and another voice later for the wicked, but all come out of their graves at his voice, at the same time, at the 7th Trumpet...as it says..it is the time of 'The Dead,' that they should be judged...in order for them to be judged, they must first be resurrected.

3) The rewards are given out to all the saints, both small and great, and to all that fear his name. In order for ALL the saints to be rewarded, they must ALL be resurrected first, and this happens for all saints, both Old and New Testament, at the 7th Trumpet.

So if it is acknowledged that all the dead, both good and bad are resurrected in Rev. 11:15, it must also be acknowledged that the trump of God in 1 Thess. 4:16 is the same trumpet sounding, the only difference being that the focus in 1 Thess. 4:16 is on the dead in Christ being resurrected. 

On 2/8/2022 at 2:39 PM, kenny2212 said:

Exodus 19:13 NKJV (emphasis mine) -   Not a hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot with an arrow; whether man or beast, he shall not live.’ When the trumpet sounds long, they shall come near the mountain.”

Now, who blew this trumpet? We're not told. But it seems where God is there is the sound of the trumpet. Even in the old testament at the capture of Jericho priests blew trumpets and God came on the scene mightily(see Joshua 6:1-21).

Even in the book of Revelation when the glorified Jesus appeared to John, Jesus' voice was said to sound like a trumpet. 

 

Yes, it says the trumpet sounded long, and that the priests blew the trumpets, but this does not establish a difference between the trump of God in 1 Thess. 4:16 and the 7th Trumpet in Rev. 11:15

On 2/8/2022 at 2:39 PM, kenny2212 said:

Paul's calling the rapture trumpet the last trumpet is because it's the last trumpet for the believers. The last trumpet before their glorification and eternal bliss.

1 Thess. 4:16 says the dead in Christ will be resurrected first...the 'dead in Christ' is the same group identified in Rev. 11:15 as 'thy servants the prophets, and the saints, and them that fear thy name both small and great.'

There is not two resurrections for the same group of people. There are two classes of people, the wicked and the righteous and they all get resurrected at the same time. There is not one trumpet showing the resurrection of all the saints at one time, while another trumpet is showing the resurrection of the same group of saints at another time. 

On 2/8/2022 at 2:39 PM, kenny2212 said:

This also proves that the rapture is "pre revelation trumpets". Unbelievers will be around to hear the "revelation trumpets" but believers won't.

It was just shown there is only one resurrection of all the saints happening at the 7th Trumpet which is depicting the same resurrection of the believers in 1 Thess. 4:16 ...this is not a 'pre revelation trumpet,' but rather is the last in a sequence of 7 trumpets.

What happens when the resurrection is broken up into two groups, one part of the saints being resurrected at one time and another group of saints being resurrected at another time, is that it violates what Paul said that we would ALL be changed at the same time, in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the Last Trump.

When it says ALL will be changed, it does not mean some changed before the Last Trump and some changed at the Last trump. NO. It says ALL will be changed at the same time.

This is clearly seen in the analogy of the good and bad fish in Matt. 13...The net was only lowered ONE TIME and it was drawn to shore when it was FULL of BOTH good and bad fish. There was no net let down for some of the good fish at one time, then lowered again for the rest of the good fish at another time, nor was there a net lowered down for only bad fish...the net was lowered one time and it was full of both good and bad fish.

So in summary, the saints are judged and rewarded at the 7th Trumpet...if they are judged and rewarded here, they were not also judged and rewarded before this...there is only one time for the saints to be resurrected and rewarded...

On 2/8/2022 at 2:39 PM, kenny2212 said:

Unbelievers will be around to hear the "revelation trumpets" but believers won't.

To say the believers won't be here to hear the 7th trumpet violates what is said to happen at the 7th Trumpet. If they have already been resurrected and judged before the 7th Trumpet sounds, they cannot be again resurrected and rewarded later at the 7th Trumpet. 

There also can not be one part of the saints being resurrected and rewarded at one time and another group of saints being resurrected and rewarded at another time because Paul specifically said We shall ALL be changed at the Last Trump...he didn't say Part of the saints will be changed before the last trump and another part of the saints at the last trump. 

Saying the believers will not be changed at the 7th Trumpet violates both what it says will happen to the believers at that time, and it also violates what Paul said that ALL would be changed, and it also violates what Jesus said that ALL that believe on the Son of God will be raised on the Last Day....plus it violates Matthew 13 that both the wheat and tares grow TOGETHER until the harvest...there is not two harvests for the wheat...one at one time and another part at another time...NO. All the wheat gets harvest at the end of the age...there is no harvest before the end of the age, for that is the very description of the harvest as Jesus said:

The harvest is the end of the age...

On 2/8/2022 at 2:39 PM, kenny2212 said:

Moreover I believe that the seventh trumpet in the book of Revelation describes more of a "coming down" than a "going up".

There is both a going up and a coming down as this is what happens at the resurrection of the dead in Christ...what Paul said was that the dead in Christ would rise first...so where do they rise to? They rise to heaven and then on this very same day they return with Christ to set up the kingdom of God on this earth.

So the dead in Christ are resurrected from the dead, then rise up to heaven...in other words they ascend up to heaven where Jesus is, just like the two witnesses who were killed by the beast.

They laid dead in the street for 3.5 days and then it says 'the spirit of life from God entered into them and they stood upon their feet...this was the resurrection from the dead and also the time this mortality put on immortality..then they heard a voice from heaven saying come up hither and they ascended up into heaven in a cloud...this is describing what will take place with all the dead in Christ...they will rise at the same time these two witnesses rise...

So what happens to the living...? They also are changed into immortal bodies at this same time and rise to meet those that sleep in Jesus as they descend down from heaven and then all the saints descend on down to the earth fulfilling what Paul said in 1 Thess. 3:13....he shall come '...and ALL the saints with thee...'

Blessings to you- Gary

 

[kenny2212]

Gary, please answer me this one question... Where in the 7th trumpet text is a rapture alluded to?

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I understand the rationale.  I've looked at it a few different ways as well.  The seven angels are given trumpets.  The trump of God is unique to God. 

• For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  1 Thess 4:16

This is a picture of the seventh angel sounding his trumpet (shout), the Lord descending to the clouds with the trumpet of God.  So while the last trumpet sounds at the seventh trumpet, it's not the seventh trumpet.

For me, the connection between a resurrection resulting from hearing His voice and a resurrection at the last trump is too strong to ignore.  That makes the last trumpet the voice of His resurrection authority.

What makes it the "last" trumpet is that after every mortal has been resurrected and the last enemy, death, is thrown into the lake of fire, rebellion is no more.  There is no more need to speak authoritatively as God's authority is a foregone conclusion in the new heaven and new earth where righteousness dwells.

Yes. I remember this from our conversations in the past.

There is this to consider:

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." Matt 24

"16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess 4

"51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." 1 Cor 15

These are references to the gathering, Matthew 24 is timing, 1 Thessalonians is the order, 1 Corinthians is the nature, but it's all the same event. If I was to allow for the trump of God to be a unique trump, why would I not allow for the loud trumpet to be another unique trump? Then I would have to consider there are three trumps for the same event: One of timing[loud trumpet], one for order[Trump of God, voice of authority], one signifying the nature[last trump].

I know from experience that a single trump can have the attributes of last, loud and ownership. Since these descriptions are intimately connected to the gathering, the return of Christ and, the end of the age I find them to be attributes of the same trump. Otherwise, for me, it's akin to adding and I'm not going there.

I'll be just as happy to be wrong as right. We'll find out when the time comes.

 

[Selah7]

54 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Yes. I remember this from our conversations in the past.

There is this to consider:

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." Matt 24

"16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess 4

"51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." 1 Cor 15

These are references to the gathering, Matthew 24 is timing, 1 Thessalonians is the order, 1 Corinthians is the nature, but it's all the same event. If I was to allow for the trump of God to be a unique trump, why would I not allow for the loud trumpet to be another unique trump? Then I would have to consider there are three trumps for the same event: One of timing[loud trumpet], one for order[Trump of God, voice of authority], one signifying the nature[last trump].

I know from experience that a single trump can have the attributes of last, loud and ownership. Since these descriptions are intimately connected to the gathering, the return of Christ and, the end of the age I find them to be attributes of the same trump. Otherwise, for me, it's akin to adding and I'm not going there.

I'll be just as happy to be wrong as right. We'll find out when the time comes.

 

Ah!  I just happen to agree with you.  

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes. I remember this from our conversations in the past.

There is this to consider:

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." Matt 24

"16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess 4

"51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." 1 Cor 15

These are references to the gathering, Matthew 24 is timing, 1 Thessalonians is the order, 1 Corinthians is the nature, but it's all the same event. If I was to allow for the trump of God to be a unique trump, why would I not allow for the loud trumpet to be another unique trump? Then I would have to consider there are three trumps for the same event: One of timing[loud trumpet], one for order[Trump of God, voice of authority], one signifying the nature[last trump].

I know from experience that a single trump can have the attributes of last, loud and ownership. Since these descriptions are intimately connected to the gathering, the return of Christ and, the end of the age I find them to be attributes of the same trump. Otherwise, for me, it's akin to adding and I'm not going there.

I'll be just as happy to be wrong as right. We'll find out when the time comes.

 

Agree.  It will all work out as God has planned.

[transmogrified]

10 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Gary, please answer me this one question... Where in the 7th trumpet text is a rapture alluded to?

Hi Kenny- The link is the resurrection of the dead...when it says the time of the dead that they should be judged means a resurrection of the dead has to happen before that can occur...it is appointed unto man once to die but after this the judgment...

So in a nutshell it says in 1 Thess. 4 that the dead in Christ will rise first...so when some people say 'nothing has to be fulfilled before the rapture happens,' is not true...Paul specifically says something must happen first...i.e. the dead in Christ have to be resurrected before the rapture.

So when Jesus said he would raise up all that believe on him at the last day, we can easily conclude if the resurrection of the dead has to happen before the rapture can take place, and the resurrection is specifically pegged to occur on the last day, then there could not possibly be  a rapture before the last day.

So yes, although we do not know the day or the hour, we do know there is a sequence of events....i.e. something has to happen before something else happens...in this case the resurrection has to happen before the rapture.

Blessings to you- Gary

 

[transmogrified]

On 2/12/2022 at 7:40 AM, Last Daze said:

This is a picture of the seventh angel sounding his trumpet (shout), the Lord descending to the clouds with the trumpet of God.  So while the last trumpet sounds at the seventh trumpet, it's not the seventh trumpet.

Hello Last Daze...

The phrase last trumpet implies there were trumpets sounding before which fits with this last trumpet being the 7th trumpet...there are no trumpets that sound after the 7th trumpet, and the resurrection of the dead takes place at this time..so they are not separate trumpets...the 7th trumpet is the last trump.

It is called a number of things in scripture but all pointing to the same trumpet...What John saw in Revelation about 7 angels being given 7 trumpets brings out details that was never revealed before...

The implications of the 7 trumpets sounding before the last one shows it would be impossible for the rapture to happen 'at any time..' In other words if the resurrection / rapture does not take place before the 7th trumpet sounds, then the events at each trumpet sound  would also have to happen before the resurrection / rapture.

Paul declared the mystery in a few short words...'Behold, I show you a mystery...we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye at the Last Trump.'

There are a number of things that has to happen according to this verse:

1) Everyone will not be killed by the beast...as it says 'we shall not all sleep, (die) but we shall all be changed...'

2) We shall ALL be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye...this means all the saints dead and alive will be changed at the exact same moment in time...not part of the saints at one time, and another part of the saints at another time...

3) At the Last Trump...this shows that this change of ALL the saints can not just happen at any time, but is specifically linked to the last trumpet that will sound...seeing this is the last trumpet, there is no other trumpet that will sound after it...so if it is assumed that the last trumpet sounds at an alleged pre-trib rapture, there could not be another trumpet that would sound later after the tribulation in  Matthew 24:31 when the elect are gathered.

It is the same trumpet in all settings concerning the Second Coming...the last one that sounds in 1 Cor. 15, and the trump of God in 1 Thess. 4 and the same one that sounds immediately after the tribulation in Matt. 24:31 which is also the 7th Trumpet in Rev.

Blessings to you- Gary

[Last Daze]

28 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Hello Last Daze...

The phrase last trumpet implies there were trumpets sounding before which fits with this last trumpet being the 7th trumpet...there are no trumpets that sound after the 7th trumpet, and the resurrection of the dead takes place at this time..so they are not separate trumpets...the 7th trumpet is the last trump.

It is called a number of things in scripture but all pointing to the same trumpet...What John saw in Revelation about 7 angels being given 7 trumpets brings out details that was never revealed before...

The implications of the 7 trumpets sounding before the last one shows it would be impossible for the rapture to happen 'at any time..' In other words if the resurrection / rapture does not take place before the 7th trumpet sounds, then the events at each trumpet sound  would also have to happen before the resurrection / rapture.

Paul declared the mystery in a few short words...'Behold, I show you a mystery...we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye at the Last Trump.'

There are a number of things that has to happen according to this verse:

1) Everyone will not be killed by the beast...as it says 'we shall not all sleep, (die) but we shall all be changed...'

2) We shall ALL be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye...this means all the saints dead and alive will be changed at the exact same moment in time...not part of the saints at one time, and another part of the saints at another time...

3) At the Last Trump...this shows that this change of ALL the saints can not just happen at any time, but is specifically linked to the last trumpet that will sound...seeing this is the last trumpet, there is no other trumpet that will sound after it...so if it is assumed that the last trumpet sounds at an alleged pre-trib rapture, there could not be another trumpet that would sound later after the tribulation in  Matthew 24:31 when the elect are gathered.

It is the same trumpet in all settings concerning the Second Coming...the last one that sounds in 1 Cor. 15, and the trump of God in 1 Thess. 4 and the same one that sounds immediately after the tribulation in Matt. 24:31 which is also the 7th Trumpet in Rev.

Blessings to you- Gary

Thanks Gary.  I understand the argument for the 7th trumpet being the last trumpet.  All there really needs to be for there to be a last trumpet is a first trumpet.  I've posted this before so I'll just summarize:

• Trump of God = His voice of authority
• First Trump of God = His authority over the nation Israel in giving them the law at Sinai.
• Last Trump of God = His resurrection authority.

I agree that the last trumpet sounds at the seventh trumpet but they are not the same trumpet.  The seventh trumpet sounds and Jesus descends to the clouds and sounds the trump of God . . . as I understand it.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Last Daze