The Ten Virgins

[Markie51]

No, not everyone professing to be a Christian will be part of the symbolic "bride" class.  Only 144,00 of whom are Called by God, reborn and anointed.  The remaining of the Christian class have the prospect of everlasting life on paradise earth and will be considered God's children.-John 10:16; 14:2, 3; 2 Corinthians 11:2-6; Revelation 7:9, 13, 14: 14:1.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Markie51
misspelled word that was confusing to the reader.

[Shilohsfoal]

13 minutes ago, Markie51 said:

No, not everyone professing to be a Christian will be part of the symbolic "bride" class.  Only 144,00 of whom are Called by God, reborn and anointed.  The remaining of the Christian class have the prospect of everlasting life on parricide earth and will be considered God.s children.-John 10:16; 14:2, 3; 2 Corinthians 11:2-6; Revelation 7:9, 13, 14: 14:1.

This word has me a bit confused.What do you mean by this?

Parricide earth?

 

Dictionary

 

 

 

https://ssl.gstatic.com/shortcuts/android/home/v1/svg/dictionary_icon.svg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

par·ri·cide

/ˈperəˌsīd/

 

 

noun

1. the killing of a parent or other near relative.

   • a person who commits parricide.

     plural noun: parricides

Edited July 15, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[Markie51]

Shilohfoal:  I meant to type "paradise."  I apparently misspelled this word and when "spell check" opened up, I unknowingly and carelessly "checked" the wrong word.   I apologize for the confusion.  I would be confused myself.

[Triton57]

On 3/3/2022 at 5:34 AM, AdHoc said:

According to Matthew 13 the end of the age is a harvest. 2nd Peter 1:20 forbids private interpretation, so we must study this matter using the first the Bible, and nature second (Romans Chapter 1 says that the things of God may be known by the creature). So if we study the harvest in Leviticus 23 and look at the farmers harvesting, we notice that the harvest, although it is one harvest of one crop, is divided into THREE gatherings. They are (i) the firstfruits, (ii) the general harvest, and (iii) the gleanings. The firstfruits are those fruits which ripen before the others and are taken into the farmer's house for his enjoyment. The rest of the crop must have more time in the heat and dryness and are then harvested. The gleaning are left to profit the weak and underprivileged.

That's an interesting insight in relation to the first resurrection.

 

1 Corinthians 15:20-23

But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

Revelation 20:4-6

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

So we have (i) Christ the firstfruits, (ii) those that are Christ's at His coming (wise virgins), and (iii) those who are killed for the witness of Yeshua and the Word of God without the mark between the catching away of the bride and Christ's return to setup the millennial kingdom. These are all part of the first resurrection and the "last resurrection" will be the final one at the end of the 1,000 years of all the dead.

 

I agree that all 10 virgins would think of themselves as the bride. I may have missed it in looking through the other posts, but I believe there may be an explanation from Revelation regarding why some of the church is shut out of the marriage.

 

Revelation 2:20-23

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

 

The church of Thyatira was not faithful to Christ, committing fornication. Generally speaking this could have applied to all church history, but the catching away will be a point in time meant to keep the promise of escaping those things coming on the world. I believe this great tribulation into which they are cast is that time after the abomination of desolation when the man of sin will be killing those who do not bow to him and those that resist will be part of the first resurrection at Christ's return to setup the millennial kingdom.

 

Luke 21:34-36

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

We see the opposite with the church of Philadelphia.

 

Revelation 3:10-12

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

 

They're promised to be kept from the hour of temptation coming on all the world. Therefore, to be kept from something affecting the whole world, they must be removed from it. I did a study on the hour of temptation that pointed me to this time being a period where decisions will be forced at pain of death to either worship the man of sin to save your mortal life or worship God and save your eternal soul.

 

We're told not to be caught up in the things of this world and watch. The cares of this world can become idolatry, which we must guard our hearts against because we live in the world and it's easy to get caught up in the world.

 

Revelation 3:3

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

 

The most important thing is spending time with Him and meditating on His Word. Watching and waiting for His call to meet Him in the air and in the meantime reaching out to the lost and even those who think they aren't lost with encouragement and sharing the hope that is in us, planting seeds where we can.

 

May God continue to bless you as you remain in Him.

 

[AdHoc]

On 8/25/2023 at 7:43 AM, Triton57 said:

That's an interesting insight in relation to the first resurrection.

 

1 Corinthians 15:20-23

But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

Revelation 20:4-6

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

So we have (i) Christ the firstfruits, (ii) those that are Christ's at His coming (wise virgins), and (iii) those who are killed for the witness of Yeshua and the Word of God without the mark between the catching away of the bride and Christ's return to setup the millennial kingdom. These are all part of the first resurrection and the "last resurrection" will be the final one at the end of the 1,000 years of all the dead.

 

I agree that all 10 virgins would think of themselves as the bride. I may have missed it in looking through the other posts, but I believe there may be an explanation from Revelation regarding why some of the church is shut out of the marriage.

 

Revelation 2:20-23

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

 

The church of Thyatira was not faithful to Christ, committing fornication. Generally speaking this could have applied to all church history, but the catching away will be a point in time meant to keep the promise of escaping those things coming on the world. I believe this great tribulation into which they are cast is that time after the abomination of desolation when the man of sin will be killing those who do not bow to him and those that resist will be part of the first resurrection at Christ's return to setup the millennial kingdom.

 

Luke 21:34-36

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

We see the opposite with the church of Philadelphia.

 

Revelation 3:10-12

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

 

They're promised to be kept from the hour of temptation coming on all the world. Therefore, to be kept from something affecting the whole world, they must be removed from it. I did a study on the hour of temptation that pointed me to this time being a period where decisions will be forced at pain of death to either worship the man of sin to save your mortal life or worship God and save your eternal soul.

 

We're told not to be caught up in the things of this world and watch. The cares of this world can become idolatry, which we must guard our hearts against because we live in the world and it's easy to get caught up in the world.

 

Revelation 3:3

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

 

The most important thing is spending time with Him and meditating on His Word. Watching and waiting for His call to meet Him in the air and in the meantime reaching out to the lost and even those who think they aren't lost with encouragement and sharing the hope that is in us, planting seeds where we can.

 

May God continue to bless you as you remain in Him.

 

It is my understanding that Church will apostatize itself (if it has not done so already). So the Lord seeks a representative Bride called "Overcomers". Now, the problem facing students of end times is the apparent TWO comings of Jesus.
1. In one set of scriptures that deals with Christ's coming, He apparently comes as a "thief in the night".
2. In another set of scriptures He comes like lightning - seen from the east to the west.

But the student of scripture is doubly burdened by another two sets of scriptures.
1. There are, (and you have rightly alluded to them) scriptures that clearly show certain Christians raptured so as to avoid the Great Tribulation
2. And there are at least four scriptures which plainly show Christians passing through the Great Tribulation.

The great pity is that the average new Christian is taught something his contemporaries know BEFORE he studies the scriptures. So he spends his life trying to fit scriptures to his understanding, instead of playing detective and letting the scriptures form his opinion.

The dilemmas above are easily solved without wresting scripture if the following facts are accepted.
1. The Coming of our Lord Jesus is a journey. He is presently at the right hand of the father "above the highest heaven". He is then given His own throne and authorized to open the seals. Romans 1 says this happens in heaven. Then our Lord must travel from there to Mount Olives. It is not far perhaps, but in between is the troposphere (that part of the sky with clouds). Hidden in the clouds He command the rapture.

2. But the Rapture is a harvest according to Matthew 13. In both the Biblical harvest (Lev.23) and in nature, the harvest is divided into (i) first ripe, (ii) the general harvest, and (iii) the gleanings. Thus, we can expect Christians to be raptured according to their spiritual MATURITY. The small salty group of Overcomers are removed and miss the Tribulation (as per Revelation 3:10) while the bulk of apostate Christianity must pass through the fire of the Great Tribulation for more maturity and refinement (Rev.7:9-16)

3. In His journey, our Lord Jesus pauses in the clouds to rapture and judge the Church. Having gathered His "House" - the Church, over several years, the time comes, according to Acts 16:14-16) to restore Israel. You will notice that from Matthew 24:1-31 everything is Jewish. The whole context is one of Jewish things. Even the gospel of the kingdom preached in all nations is a Jewish matter because in Galatians 2 we learn that the 12 Apostles are sent to the "circumcision", while only Paul is sent to the "uncircumcision". Thus, the signs and events of Matthew 24 up to the angels gathering the elect are all Jewish. Only Israel was dispersed to the four winds (Jer.49:38, Ezel 37:28).

4. Thus, with the above scenario, our Lord Jesus Jesus takes a single journey starting above all heavens and ending on Mount Olives. He gathers His Church from the air. A Thief comes for something precious - Overcomers and the "House" is broken up as some are "LEFT". After facing the heat and refinement of the Great Tribulation, the bulk of Christianity are raptured for the Judgment Seat. Then Christ continues His journey to Mount Olives to settle the issue of Israel.

In this, our Lord only "comes" once. But He settles issues on the way. His coronation in Revelation 4. The Seals must be opened in heaven. the Jewish Remnant of Romans 9 and 1 are sealed in Revelation 7. The Church is never mentioned because it was broken up by a Firstfruits rapture. The Church, having been judged in the air, arrives with Jesus from the sky like Enoch and Jude predicted. Our Lord relieves beleaguered Jerusalem, fights Armageddon, settles Edom's portion at Bozrah and gathers Israel as per Ezekiel 37.

This is frightfully brief, but I'm trusting your apparent knowledge to at least see what I'm proposing. Like all men, I've propbably missed something.

Go well and God bless

[Montana Marv]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But the student of scripture is doubly burdened by another two sets of scriptures.
1. There are, (and you have rightly alluded to them) scriptures that clearly show certain Christians raptured so as to avoid the Great Tribulation
2. And there are at least four scriptures which plainly show Christians passing through the Great Tribulation.

But which one is the Bride of Christ; then which one will be left to hear the Angel flying in Mid Air proclaiming the eternal Gospel (Rev 14:6).  If an Angel is proclaiming the Gospel, the Bride of Christ is gone (for we are the salt of the earth, we are the light).  We have been replaced in witnessing.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Vine Abider]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It is my understanding that Church will apostatize itself (if it has not done so already). So the Lord seeks a representative Bride called "Overcomers". Now, the problem facing students of end times is the apparent TWO comings of Jesus.
1. In one set of scriptures that deals with Christ's coming, He apparently comes as a "thief in the night".
2. In another set of scriptures He comes like lightning - seen from the east to the west.

But the student of scripture is doubly burdened by another two sets of scriptures.
1. There are, (and you have rightly alluded to them) scriptures that clearly show certain Christians raptured so as to avoid the Great Tribulation
2. And there are at least four scriptures which plainly show Christians passing through the Great Tribulation.

The great pity is that the average new Christian is taught something his contemporaries know BEFORE he studies the scriptures. So he spends his life trying to fit scriptures to his understanding, instead of playing detective and letting the scriptures form his opinion.

The dilemmas above are easily solved without wresting scripture if the following facts are accepted.
1. The Coming of our Lord Jesus is a journey. He is presently at the right hand of the father "above the highest heaven". He is then given His own throne and authorized to open the seals. Romans 1 says this happens in heaven. Then our Lord must travel from there to Mount Olives. It is not far perhaps, but in between is the troposphere (that part of the sky with clouds). Hidden in the clouds He command the rapture.

2. But the Rapture is a harvest according to Matthew 13. In both the Biblical harvest (Lev.23) and in nature, the harvest is divided into (i) first ripe, (ii) the general harvest, and (iii) the gleanings. Thus, we can expect Christians to be raptured according to their spiritual MATURITY. The small salty group of Overcomers are removed and miss the Tribulation (as per Revelation 3:10) while the bulk of apostate Christianity must pass through the fire of the Great Tribulation for more maturity and refinement (Rev.7:9-16)

3. In His journey, our Lord Jesus pauses in the clouds to rapture and judge the Church. Having gathered His "House" - the Church, over several years, the time comes, according to Acts 16:14-16) to restore Israel. You will notice that from Matthew 24:1-31 everything is Jewish. The whole context is one of Jewish things. Even the gospel of the kingdom preached in all nations is a Jewish matter because in Galatians 2 we learn that the 12 Apostles are sent to the "circumcision", while only Paul is sent to the "uncircumcision". Thus, the signs and events of Matthew 24 up to the angels gathering the elect are all Jewish. Only Israel was dispersed to the four winds (Jer.49:38, Ezel 37:28).

4. Thus, with the above scenario, our Lord Jesus Jesus takes a single journey starting above all heavens and ending on Mount Olives. He gathers His Church from the air. A Thief comes for something precious - Overcomers and the "House" is broken up as some are "LEFT". After facing the heat and refinement of the Great Tribulation, the bulk of Christianity are raptured for the Judgment Seat. Then Christ continues His journey to Mount Olives to settle the issue of Israel.

In this, our Lord only "comes" once. But He settles issues on the way. His coronation in Revelation 4. The Seals must be opened in heaven. the Jewish Remnant of Romans 9 and 1 are sealed in Revelation 7. The Church is never mentioned because it was broken up by a Firstfruits rapture. The Church, having been judged in the air, arrives with Jesus from the sky like Enoch and Jude predicted. Our Lord relieves beleaguered Jerusalem, fights Armageddon, settles Edom's portion at Bozrah and gathers Israel as per Ezekiel 37.

This is frightfully brief, but I'm trusting your apparent knowledge to at least see what I'm proposing. Like all men, I've propbably missed something.

Go well and God bless

Perhaps the best and most concise explanation I've heard on this - thanks bro!

[Triton57]

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It is my understanding that Church will apostatize itself (if it has not done so already). So the Lord seeks a representative Bride called "Overcomers"

 

I have come to that conclusion as well, but I agree that much of scripture is focused on natural Israel and God completing His plan with her. To that end I think the apostasia of 2 Thessalonians 2 applies to the church falling away, but also a more Israel-centric view of the man of sin declaring himself to be god, such that accepting this man that comes in his own name and rejecting Him that came in His Father's name will be the ultimate apostasy in relation to Israel at this time, which is also tied to the revealing of the man of sin.

 

Quote

Now, the problem facing students of end times is the apparent TWO comings of Jesus.

1. In one set of scriptures that deals with Christ's coming, He apparently comes as a "thief in the night".

2. In another set of scriptures He comes like lightning - seen from the east to the west.

 

From what I've studied of scripture, I think that both the scriptures of Christ coming like a thief in the night and like lightning are the same event at the day of the Lord. A lot of things are going to be happening in a very short period of time from what I read in scripture.

 

• 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 associates the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night where sudden destruction comes and "they" don't escape, but we are not in darkness that it take us over like a thief and that we are not appointed to wrath.
• 2 Peter 3:10-12 associates the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night as well, in the which the heavens will pass away and the elements melt. Personally I think the verses 8-9 just before indicate this is after the 1,000 year "day" of the Lord, after the millennium. Revelation 21:1
• Joel 2:9 specifically speaks to "they" entering into the windows like a thief. I'm currently starting a study on this idea tied to the one taken and one left because there has always seemed to be an apparent contradiction between Luke 17 and Matthew 24 accounts I may have gotten to the bottom of. I'm finding that it's due to the differences in the way both tell the story and Luke 17 clarifies something. It's a potentially interesting picture of this timeframe from the abomination of desolation and the time of Jacob's trouble to the day of the Lord. Still studying and praying on that.
• Revelation 3:3 states that if we don't watch He will come as a thief and we won't know the hour He comes upon us. This would imply that if we are watching, He will not come as a thief.
• Revelation 16:15 Yeshua states He comes as a thief after the sixth bowl is poured out, a single verse in the midst of this gathering of the world to battle on the great day of God Almighty. In Revelation 3, when speaking of coming like a thief, He says there are few who have not defiled their garments and will walk with Him in white raiment and will not be blotted out of the book of life. We see before Christ comes to take the kingdoms at Armageddon that the bride is in heaven in white linen white and clean, so they must have been up there from before. Revelation 7:9-17 | Revelation 19:7-15
• Matthew 24:23-28 associates the coming of Christ with lightning shining from East to West. This is in context to warning of false christs, which is just after He speaks of the unparalleled time of tribulation in Judea. Verse 28 speaks more to the study I referenced earlier, but verse 29 states that after the tribulation of those days (unparalleled trouble in Judea), the sign of the sixth seal occurs and the son of Man comes in great glory and gathers the elect. I believe this all speaks of that time of Jacob's trouble that's cut short by His coming and protecting the remnant of Israel in Judea. Revelation 12:13-17
• Luke 17:22-24 repeats the warning of false christs, reiterating that Yeshua comes with lightning in heaven so as not to be deceived by the false christs. I believe verses 22-37 work in concert with Matthew 24 describing the taken and left scenario during the time of Jacob's trouble.

 

But overall these all, either explicitly or by placement in following scriptures, come at the time just before the sixth seal describing how Yeshua will arrive, suddenly without warning for those not watching and with the sudden destruction of the day of the Lord.

 

Quote

But the student of scripture is doubly burdened by another two sets of scriptures.

1. There are, (and you have rightly alluded to them) scriptures that clearly show certain Christians raptured so as to avoid the Great Tribulation

2. And there are at least four scriptures which plainly show Christians passing through the Great Tribulation.

The great pity is that the average new Christian is taught something his contemporaries know BEFORE he studies the scriptures. So he spends his life trying to fit scriptures to his understanding, instead of playing detective and letting the scriptures form his opinion.

The dilemmas above are easily solved without wresting scripture if the following facts are accepted.

1. The Coming of our Lord Jesus is a journey. He is presently at the right hand of the father "above the highest heaven". He is then given His own throne and authorized to open the seals. Romans 1 says this happens in heaven. Then our Lord must travel from there to Mount Olives. It is not far perhaps, but in between is the troposphere (that part of the sky with clouds). Hidden in the clouds He command the rapture.

2. But the Rapture is a harvest according to Matthew 13. In both the Biblical harvest (Lev.23) and in nature, the harvest is divided into (i) first ripe, (ii) the general harvest, and (iii) the gleanings. Thus, we can expect Christians to be raptured according to their spiritual MATURITY. The small salty group of Overcomers are removed and miss the Tribulation (as per Revelation 3:10) while the bulk of apostate Christianity must pass through the fire of the Great Tribulation for more maturity and refinement (Rev.7:9-16)

 

I started responding and it turned into a big long post that probably needs to be separate as I think I'm in agreement with you on what you've stated so far and my attempt to explain my position in detail is better separated from this discussion, although it's very relevant. So instead of consuming all this space, I've created a new post, Tribulation Nuance, that clarifies my position on the tribulation, wrath and why I think pre/mid/post views of the catching away are all right, with some nuance.

 

Quote

3. In His journey, our Lord Jesus pauses in the clouds to rapture and judge the Church. Having gathered His "House" - the Church, over several years, the time comes, according to Acts 16:14-16) to restore Israel.

 

What do you mean by gathering the church over several years? Are you talking about the time before the catching away or that over that period during the time of tribulation the gathering is constant?

 

Quote

You will notice that from Matthew 24:1-31 everything is Jewish. The whole context is one of Jewish things. Even the gospel of the kingdom preached in all nations is a Jewish matter because in Galatians 2 we learn that the 12 Apostles are sent to the "circumcision", while only Paul is sent to the "uncircumcision". Thus, the signs and events of Matthew 24 up to the angels gathering the elect are all Jewish. Only Israel was dispersed to the four winds (Jer.49:38, Ezel 37:28).

 

Yes, I agree it is very Israel-centered. Are you saying that the church is gathered in the years prior to Matthew 24:31 and that verse is speaking of Israel?

 

Quote

4. Thus, with the above scenario, our Lord Jesus Jesus takes a single journey starting above all heavens and ending on Mount Olives. He gathers His Church from the air. A Thief comes for something precious - Overcomers and the "House" is broken up as some are "LEFT". After facing the heat and refinement of the Great Tribulation, the bulk of Christianity are raptured for the Judgment Seat. Then Christ continues His journey to Mount Olives to settle the issue of Israel.

In this, our Lord only "comes" once. But He settles issues on the way. His coronation in Revelation 4. The Seals must be opened in heaven. the Jewish Remnant of Romans 9 and 1 are sealed in Revelation 7. The Church is never mentioned because it was broken up by a Firstfruits rapture. The Church, having been judged in the air, arrives with Jesus from the sky like Enoch and Jude predicted. Our Lord relieves beleaguered Jerusalem, fights Armageddon, settles Edom's portion at Bozrah and gathers Israel as per Ezekiel 37.

This is frightfully brief, but I'm trusting your apparent knowledge to at least see what I'm proposing. Like all men, I've propbably missed something.

 

I think I understand what's you're saying, Christ comes once over a period of time, say the 70th week, and gathers much of the church through the time to the great tribulation and then is dealing just with Israel. I would agree on the transition dealing with Israel, in my view that is just after the sixth seal after the time of unparalleled tribulation in Judea. That is when the 144,000 are sealed and we see the bride in heaven before the wrath of Revelation 8. The fulness of the Gentiles has completed at that time and Israel is unblinded as they go into hiding from the dragon for 3 1/2 years.

 

I think Yeshua is the firstfruits though and happened back in 30 AD while the church is after that followed at the end of the wrath of the dragon by the resurrection of what many call the tribulation saints, not caught up, but resurrected to reign with Christ for 1,000 years.

 

I think we have some similar views, but not quite the same. I'll have to think about that.

[AdHoc]

16 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

But which one is the Bride of Christ; then which one will be left to hear the Angel flying in Mid Air proclaiming the eternal Gospel (Rev 14:6).  If an Angel is proclaiming the Gospel, the Bride of Christ is gone (for we are the salt of the earth, we are the light).  We have been replaced in witnessing.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Good question.

We have three dedicated scriptures concerning the Marriage Feast. In two (Matthew 22 and Matthew 25) only the guests are alluded to. In one (Revelation 19) guests AND Bride are alluded to. In Revelation 21 the Wife (or Bride) is alluded to but the Feast is not mentioned.

The fundamental principle of the Millennium is threefold:
(1) It is a time of REWARD. Christ's Kingdom lasts forever. The first 1,000 years are set aside by God in which the faithful, diligent lovers of Jesus will be rewarded with Him
(2) It is the time during which God's enemies are subdued by Christ and the Overcomers (1st Cor.15:23-28)
(3) It the time of the fulfillment of the promises and prophecies to Israel

In point #1 Christ's Reward will be (i) A Name above every name, (ii) the public glory of the Father, (iii) inheriting all things, (iv) crowned King of kings over the earth, and (v) being presented with His Bride. Now, Ephesians says that He will present to Himself a Bride which is spotless and without blemish (Eph.5:27). This verse also says that the Bride is the Church. This is confirmed by 2nd Corinthians 11:2 in which the espousal is made irrespective of the condition of the the saints.

But from the gospels, Acts and especially the letters, the whole New Testament shows that at Christ's coming the Church will NOT be without spot or blemish. So the question is; will the Father withhold His Son's REWARD until the Church is right, or will He  give Christ His REWARD anyway?

The answer is that God has always worked with a representative REMNANT. A perfect example of this is the building of the second Temple. Only 2.5% of Judah returned to build and suffer hardship to realize God's heart's desire. To them He calls ISRAEL. At the same time the other 97% who stayed in the comfort of Babylon He does not identify with. In Esther God is never mentioned. One party purified themselves, fought off enemies and labored for God's House, City and Land and the other, while the other chose Babylon, it delights, its foreign king and its idols. For God, Israel was the suffering REMNANT.

The Two parables in Matthew equate the Wedding Feast with the Millennium Kingdom. He who is without blemish and who has the correct garment WILL BE REWARDED by a Feast with Christ. He who qualifies to be a Guest ALSO makes up the REPRESENTATIVE BRIDE. The rest of the Christians who were slothful and habitual sinners are worked on during the Millennium to produce the WIFE on the New Earth. They miss the Wedding Feast but make up the WIFE afterwards.

For the contingent of Christians who miss the Wedding Feast the main cause was lack of transformation of the soul. The chastisement during the Millennium is NOT to deal with their sins. It is to conform them to the image and likeness of Christ (Rom.8:29). The same is the case in 1st Corinthians 3. "Saved ... yet so as by fire!"

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

I have come to that conclusion as well, but I agree that much of scripture is focused on natural Israel and God completing His plan with her. To that end I think the apostasia of 2 Thessalonians 2 applies to the church falling away, but also a more Israel-centric view of the man of sin declaring himself to be god, such that accepting this man that comes in his own name and rejecting Him that came in His Father's name will be the ultimate apostasy in relation to Israel at this time, which is also tied to the revealing of the man of sin.

 

 

From what I've studied of scripture, I think that both the scriptures of Christ coming like a thief in the night and like lightning are the same event at the day of the Lord. A lot of things are going to be happening in a very short period of time from what I read in scripture.

 

• 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 associates the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night where sudden destruction comes and "they" don't escape, but we are not in darkness that it take us over like a thief and that we are not appointed to wrath.
• 2 Peter 3:10-12 associates the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night as well, in the which the heavens will pass away and the elements melt. Personally I think the verses 8-9 just before indicate this is after the 1,000 year "day" of the Lord, after the millennium. Revelation 21:1
• Joel 2:9 specifically speaks to "they" entering into the windows like a thief. I'm currently starting a study on this idea tied to the one taken and one left because there has always seemed to be an apparent contradiction between Luke 17 and Matthew 24 accounts I may have gotten to the bottom of. I'm finding that it's due to the differences in the way both tell the story and Luke 17 clarifies something. It's a potentially interesting picture of this timeframe from the abomination of desolation and the time of Jacob's trouble to the day of the Lord. Still studying and praying on that.
• Revelation 3:3 states that if we don't watch He will come as a thief and we won't know the hour He comes upon us. This would imply that if we are watching, He will not come as a thief.
• Revelation 16:15 Yeshua states He comes as a thief after the sixth bowl is poured out, a single verse in the midst of this gathering of the world to battle on the great day of God Almighty. In Revelation 3, when speaking of coming like a thief, He says there are few who have not defiled their garments and will walk with Him in white raiment and will not be blotted out of the book of life. We see before Christ comes to take the kingdoms at Armageddon that the bride is in heaven in white linen white and clean, so they must have been up there from before. Revelation 7:9-17 | Revelation 19:7-15
• Matthew 24:23-28 associates the coming of Christ with lightning shining from East to West. This is in context to warning of false christs, which is just after He speaks of the unparalleled time of tribulation in Judea. Verse 28 speaks more to the study I referenced earlier, but verse 29 states that after the tribulation of those days (unparalleled trouble in Judea), the sign of the sixth seal occurs and the son of Man comes in great glory and gathers the elect. I believe this all speaks of that time of Jacob's trouble that's cut short by His coming and protecting the remnant of Israel in Judea. Revelation 12:13-17
• Luke 17:22-24 repeats the warning of false christs, reiterating that Yeshua comes with lightning in heaven so as not to be deceived by the false christs. I believe verses 22-37 work in concert with Matthew 24 describing the taken and left scenario during the time of Jacob's trouble.

 

But overall these all, either explicitly or by placement in following scriptures, come at the time just before the sixth seal describing how Yeshua will arrive, suddenly without warning for those not watching and with the sudden destruction of the day of the Lord.

 

 

I started responding and it turned into a big long post that probably needs to be separate as I think I'm in agreement with you on what you've stated so far and my attempt to explain my position in detail is better separated from this discussion, although it's very relevant. So instead of consuming all this space, I've created a new post, Tribulation Nuance, that clarifies my position on the tribulation, wrath and why I think pre/mid/post views of the catching away are all right, with some nuance.

 

 

What do you mean by gathering the church over several years? Are you talking about the time before the catching away or that over that period during the time of tribulation the gathering is constant?

 

 

Yes, I agree it is very Israel-centered. Are you saying that the church is gathered in the years prior to Matthew 24:31 and that verse is speaking of Israel?

 

 

I think I understand what's you're saying, Christ comes once over a period of time, say the 70th week, and gathers much of the church through the time to the great tribulation and then is dealing just with Israel. I would agree on the transition dealing with Israel, in my view that is just after the sixth seal after the time of unparalleled tribulation in Judea. That is when the 144,000 are sealed and we see the bride in heaven before the wrath of Revelation 8. The fulness of the Gentiles has completed at that time and Israel is unblinded as they go into hiding from the dragon for 3 1/2 years.

 

I think Yeshua is the firstfruits though and happened back in 30 AD while the church is after that followed at the end of the wrath of the dragon by the resurrection of what many call the tribulation saints, not caught up, but resurrected to reign with Christ for 1,000 years.

 

I think we have some similar views, but not quite the same. I'll have to think about that.

You have written comprehensively, for which I thank you. Much of our understanding is along the same lines with slight variants. To answer all your points would overload the posting, so I'm going to select the point, or points, where I diverge from mainstream eschatology. Hopefully, my arguments can then clear up other points.

That we are heading for a showdown is not only obvious to the average citizen who reads the media, but this showdown is inevitable when evil abounds. Governments are brought low by corruption and we are seemingly headed for anarchy. After preaching the gospel for 2 millennia the Church is almost as fallen as the Nations. God's predicted "wrath" is inevitable. They question then is; does the Church experience this wrath or does it escape?

Since J. N. Darby laid forth publicly the pre-tribulation rapture, the idea of a comprehensive escape from the earth at this time is prevailing. But there are enough scriptures to show Christians experiencing the Tribulation to confuse the issue. Specifically, those of Revelation 7 who pass through the Great Tribulation, those who must flee in Revelation 12, those who are overcome by the Beast in Revelation 13:7 and those found partaking of the Whore's plagues in Revelation 18:4, provide a strong argument that brother Darby and co did not have all the answers.

I have found that only one argument can satisfy all scriptures. That is, as Matthew 13 tells, the end of the age is a HARVEST (Matt.13:39). And both in nature and in scripture (Lev.23), the harvest consists of the farmer gathering his crop ONLY WHEN IT IS RIPE. Generally, this means at least THREE gatherings - that of the FIRSTFRUITS, then the GENERAL HARVEST and last, the GLEANINGS. Added to this, if we are to take the context of Philippians 3:10-14 as Paul striving for REWARDS, which include a special resurrection ("ex-annistasis" Gk.) and the PRIZE of the "upward-calling", then a rapture in which one escapes is to be EARNED - not guaranteed as Mr. Darby said.

I propose three scriptures (at least) that support the idea of (i) multiple gatherings in ONE harvest, (ii) a pre-tribulation rapture being a REWARD.
1. In Luke 21 the fate of Jerusalem is predicted up until verse 24. Then, like many prophecies, the whole age is skipped over and verse 25 directs us to the time of Christ's coming. The Great Tribulation is said by scripture to encompass the WHOLE earth. That is, there will be no cave or den where it does not reach. Escape is only by death (which is no escape) or by removal from earth to the sky if alive.

In my previous posting I proposed that our Lord Jesus takes a journey from the above heaven to Mt.Olives. Mathew 24 gives that "Apocalypse" (the revealing - lit. Gk.) as "AFTER the tribulation of those days". But the context of Luke 21:25-26 is DURING the Tribulation. So, to STAND before the Son of Man (v.36) must mean that He has not burst through the clouds yet and you will STAND before Him in the clouds. I judge that "STAND" has a double meaning. It shows a position and that one is alive (the dead STAND - Rev.20:12). So, verse 36 shows an escape from earth. But more than this, it shows that the escape MUST BE EARNED. "Counted WORTHY" is conditional.

2. In Revelation 3:10 our Lord and Head of the Church commends the Philadelphians. He promises an escape "BECAUSE" of what they had DONE. But more than this, the escape is not only from the trial, but FROM THE HOUR of trial. That is, absence FROM the trial AND absence from the TIME that the earth languishes in tribulation. The word "because" is conditional.

3. In Philippians 3:9-14 mentioned above, Paul talks of TWO POSITIONS and TWO RIGHTEOUSNESSES. One is he be found IN Christ, and  the second is that he might WIN Christ. For the first only Christ's righteousness imputed to him will suffice. But for the second he DOES SOMETHING. He suffers the loss of all things. But besides winning Christ as the main object of his EFFORTS, he looks forward to a REWARD. And this reward is the same two things discussed in 1st Thessalonians 4 - resurrection and "Up-calling" (lit.Gk.) - the rapture.

The word in Greek that we render "resurrection" is actually more than that. It is only used once in scripture. It is "EX-annistasis" and means; "the resurrection from out of the resurrection". That is, a special resurrection from the resurrection guaranteed to all men. And far from being guaranteed, it must be "ATTAINED to". Likewise, while 1st Thessalonians 4 guarantees a rapture, Paul must STRIVE for the "PRIZE" of the upward calling.

If one applies the evidence - as a good detective is wont, the facts indicate that;
1. There is a resurrection and following rapture for the ALL the Church at the end of this age
2. It is ONE harvest with multiple gatherings
3. A pre-tribulation resurrection is conditional. It must be ATTAINED TO
4. A pre-tribulation rapture is a PRIZE. It is conditional
5. Only SOME, called "Overcomers", and/or FIRSTFRUITS qualify
6. The POSITION is with Christ in the clouds
7. This position only helps if one misses the HOUR of the earth's trial
8. This explains why there are multiple scriptures with believers passing through the Great Tribulation while multiple scriptures indicate SOME don't.