The Creation of Lucifer.

[Aim_64bIT]

I hold the belief that Isaiah 14:12-14 is part of a dual referent, just like Genesis 3:15. It cannot be ruled out. Most will agree that Gen. 3:15 is the first Messianic Prophecy.

Now I suppose the teaching that Satan was Lucifer is detrimental to the Jewish, knowing it to be Nebuchadnezzar, who, for teaching such as this, have not come into the light of the Gospel. Though, it is excellent in rebuking pagans. I tell you, if its one group of people that hate Lucifer being referred to as the Evil, its them pagans.

The scripture on Satan is convergent with Isaiah 14:12-14. (It could also be, specifically, for the Anti-Christ).

Luke 10:18 KJV

(18) And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

2 Corinthians 11:14 KJV

(14) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Revelation 20:3 KJV

(3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

[eric]

Grace to you,

God in all His Goodness Created Good things. For His very Glory in Christ Jesus. His Glory demands Free Will. He will gain no Glory from forced acts of Love. That is not Love at all. This Free will leaves room for the abuse of God's Goodness. As we now see in the rebellion of man and formerly satan himself.

He was perfect in his ways from the day he was Created, until iniquity was found in him. He then abused the very gifts and splendor of the Lord by which he was clothed and Created. he was Created and clothed to give Glory to God. However he did choose to use these gifts for his own gain.

God could have chosen to create a bunch of robots who continually sing of His Glory? In my mind that would ring about as hollow as some wind up toy of dozens of tin elves that you see singing Merry Christmas at some toy shop along the Boulevard.

The truth of the matter is this. God thought it worth the risk to give you Free will. He found it worth the risk to Create you and gain your Love. Despite the rebellion that would ensue. He is Glorified in it.

Think of a world of no risks? I mean a place where time and space bend at the very place where you or I would come into contact with harm. A place with no Free Will. To wind up the Universe and then not allow the place for happenstance? There would be no free will without happenstance. Simply because the place where harm may befall me? May be the place where your Free will decision is made? It would be like building a ship and placing it in a bottle to never float and be Free. Untested it would be a thing of beauty yet very useless other than to look at. God wants to interact with us for His Glory. We are not a ship in a bottle on some mantle somewhere. We are people who are experiencing God out on the open sea. Tested and refined found Lovers of God. Then we are outfitted for more voyages. Given a sturdier rudder and drawing ever closer to God by experience. He wants to know us and us Him.

We cannot experience God bottled up on a shelf.

The question is? Will we use our gifts and His splendor His very likeness and image to give Him Glory? Or ourselves?

Abba Father,

Help us today to side with You against ourseleves. For Your very Glory. In Jesus Christ's Mighty and Matchless name we pray, Amen.

P.S. No offense against tiny ship in a bottle builders.  

Peace,

Dave

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Thank you Dave. It would have taken me an hour to figure that out and another hour and a half to type it.

I like your style my brother.

e

[godrulz]

Calvinism would attribute the fall of Lucifer and Adam to God's sovereign will. This is problematic in that it would wrongly make God responsible for sin and evil.

Arminianism claims God created free moral agents. His so-called simple foreknowledge saw evil without causing it. This is logically problematic in that exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies is a contradiction.

Open Theism (alternate view) rightly recognizes that God's creation was 'very good'. God did not intend for Lucifer or Adam to Fall. He knew it was possible, but it did not become actual/certain until they fell. He correctly knew the future as possible, not certain.

God did not create Lucifer to fall. He also did not know for certain that he would fall before He created angels or men. When the possible fall became actual, then He correctly knew this reality. It broke His heart and grieved Him. He then implemented a contingent plan of redemption that does not include Satan. Satan is more culpable since he sinned against great light. There is no provision for his repentance/redemption. Revelation shows that he will be cast into the lake of fire.

[Aim_64bIT]

I do not agree with the notion that God created Satan for to do Evil. God creates good and calamity, but he does not create moral evil. God created an anointed the Cherub named Lucifer and Lucifer created Satan by rebelling, for

[ann2]

Aim 64bit---------who are the pagans you are talking?

[Aim_64bIT]

Open Theism (alternate view) rightly recognizes that God's creation was 'very good'. God did not intend for Lucifer or Adam to Fall. He knew it was possible, but it did not become actual/certain until they fell. He correctly knew the future as possible, not certain.

I have considered the idea that God chooses not to know the future. He empties himself of certain attributes in the Son of God.

Genesis 18:21 KJV

(21) I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Mark 13:32 KJV

(32) But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Aim 64bit---------who are the pagans you are talking?

I don't know any personally. Its just that, in my conversations on the internet, I have picked up on the bit of information that witches worship that named him.

Edited September 12, 2005 by Aim_64bIT

[Aim_64bIT]

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV

(16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Revelation 5:1-9 KJV

(1) And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

(2) And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

(3) And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

(4) And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

(5) And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

(6) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

(7) And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

(8) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

(9) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

[ruah brit]

Lucifer is part of God's plan. Notice that Lucifer is a man that boasts himself up to heaven, but in the end dies like men die to never rise again.

Denise

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Lucifer was an angel ( now a fallen angel...aka satan ), not a man

Anyway, to answer the OP's question- God created Lucifer good- just as He did man...but God also gives freewill to His creatures; and satan ( and us ) abused that freewill. God's not at fault here.

Be blessed,

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I posted the scripture. So you want to ignore the scripture in favor of old fairy tales instead of the scriptures?

12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'

15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.

16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,

Denise

Edited September 12, 2005 by ruah brit

[Aim_64bIT]

(...)

Edited September 12, 2005 by Aim_64bIT

[NITE OWL]

I do not agree with the notion that God created Satan for to do Evil.  God creates good and calamity, but he does not create moral evil.  God created an anointed the Cherub named Lucifer and Lucifer created Satan by rebelling, for