WOMEN PASTORS

[Vickilynn]

Do not listen to paul. If he had his way no one would be married with a family. Listen to Jesus ..God our father..Go ye into the world and preach the Gospel. Holy Spirit knows no Gender nor did God make any seperation of adam and Eve until the fall. He still called them both Adam. We are not under the curse anymore. That was done with when Jesus died on the cross, unless you are not christian. A woman is the same as a man where The gifts of the spirit are concerned. The Spirit gives them out as He sees fit. Do not grieve the Spirit of God.

Preaching the word as a woman is NOT ursurping authority unless you take the pulpit by violent force.

If one wants to live under the bondage of the law ...let them. Do not hide your light under a bushel and let those give a account for themselves...

Obey Jesus.

Shalom Y'all,

Excuse me for butting in this tired old debate about women pastors, but is no one going to call Patricia out on this post?

Do not listen to paul. If he had his way no one would be married with a family.

Patricia, are you saying that the Scriptures are not G-d-breathed and written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? ALL of them? Even the ones that you don't like?

2 Timothy 3

16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

[Guest LadyC]

i had missed that post. good call vickilynn.

patricia, in the epistles, the letters were written to specific churches. but to say not to listen to paul is to say "don't listen to God". paul didn't go around telling people never to marry. HE preferred celibacy and indicated that HE believed it was better, but NEVER said that his will was above the Father's or implied that God would rather us all stay celibate.

[exrockstar]

it is a valid point, it was addressing disorder and chaos that was taking place at that time in the church, and the letter was addressed TO a particular church that was in crisis, and isn't meant as the infrastructure for all churches.

God doesn't expect women to sit in total silence. and God help me (and most of the women here) if He does.

that being said, the heirarchy of authority is clear throughout scripture. yes, man and woman are equals.... in a marriage, and in the kingdom of God. however, just as the family unit has a chain of command, so does the church family unit. Christ is the final authority, followed by MAN, followed by women, followed by children.

you are absolutely correct and should I ever find myself in a postition that I had to speak up I would try to do it in a way that did not humiliate the head. I fully understand the roles of marriage and of the church and I even respect them. And whomever is the head of a church, man or woman, I would never attempt to "usurp" them. Still and all the only authority over me, is Christ especially when it comes to a teaching as silly as women not being allowed to lead.

so do you guys look at scripture and think that it is not meant for you?

i dont look at the Corinthian letters and read it as though its not about me.

I read it and apply it.

Man never changes. There is still arrogance, greed, lust etc etc. so if you guys think that

that corruption from 2000 years ago is not applicable today then i say you look again.

same minds-sets exist.

Maybe that is the difference with both of your beliefs verses others?

[Guest Biblicist]

I personally know plenty of women who should remain silent, and not just in church...

[Guest LadyC]

bib, i absolutely believe all scripture is inspired by God. but i also understand that there are many times in scripture where a certain group of people were addressed. kinda like the should men be allowed to have long hair debate. or kinda like laws that were written affecting hebrews but not necessarily all mankind.

i've made my thoughts on this subject quite clear, and in no way does what i say oppose scripture. not even does it oppose paul's letter addressing a specific church crisis. a woman who delivers a sermon should be subject to the authority of a male, and should not hold the office of being the head honcho.

[Scarletprayers]

And for today, I believe it is used by insecure men and women who have been fed a bunch of malarchy all of their lives in the church or by some overbearing man in their life.

And please don't suggest that I don't like men. I love them a whole lot, I just don't care for chauvinistic attitudes or passive people pleasing attitudes. I stand for the Lord, I will teach, preach, and use authority where ever and when ever I believe the Lord is urging me to do so.....

It does not say "over Christ". It says, "over the man".

and in Christ there is neither male nor female. So who really is the Man being spoken of?

love and blessings

I usually stay out of these type of debates now, but you might wanna watch your blanket statment of passive people, or women who are evidently to stupid to understand the clear meaning of scripture. I am neither passive nor stupid and I find the scriptures very clear that woman are not to preach or be in authority over men. If we can make blanket statements of our opinions and call them truth, here is mine! I find that people who make statements like yours are usually woman who want to find a reason, any reason for not doing something the Bible clearly states is wrong, because it doesn't suit them and therefore scirpture has to be twisted to suit their purpose, so they can justify what they want, instead of obeying the Lord!

[exrockstar]

Then you are calling scripture silly and saying hogwash to the gospel. It is interesting how that whenever people don't want to apply or adhere to scripture they excuse it as being something that was meant for the church at that time, but you will never hear anybody say that scriptures like John 3:16 was only meant for the Jews or Eph 2:8,9 was only meant for the Ephesians.

This was not the case because it has been mentioned in two separate books of the NT in speaking on the same subject.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Timothy 2:11-14 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I know this is going to hard to swallow, but look at what was said - "For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression". This is the reasoning that Paul is giving as to why he made the statement.

For - Because; since.

So, basically, the woman is to learn in silence with all subjection, not to teach nor to usurp the authority of the man, but to be in silence, "because/since" Adam was created before Eve and the woman was deceived and not Adam. This takes away the "in Christ there is neither male nor female" idea.

This is the scripture you are using as argument -

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

If you would look how this verse is being used is that there is no status that makes anybody more important in Jesus' eyes than anybody else. This has nothing to do with the offices that the male has been called to do. Just as even under the OT the priests were not more important than anybody else.

When we read the qualifications of elders, bishops, and deacons we see that they are men married to one wife.

1 Timothy 3:1-2 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1 Timothy 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Even here we see that only men can be bishops and deacons.

it is clear that some here have made a loophole in their beliefs.

they say:

"well...technically they (female pastors) aren't really leading because they have a pastor overseeing them....."

Church was never supposed to be a complicated web.

When pastors don't have time to lead their congregations then they aren't leaders.

When pastors have a couple of churches under them

then they arent leading. When others are speaking for them for whatever reasons then

they arent leading.

When a female calls herself a pastor then thats a big error. no matter whos over who.

it takes humility to politely remove that title.

If a woman is asked to lead a sermon then there is error in the pastor.

He should ask a male because he should have males preparing for moments like those.

if he asks a female then he has let down scripture and has failed as a leading pastor to the men.

scripture is scripture.

[Guest Biblicist]

bib, i absolutely believe all scripture is inspired by God. but i also understand that there are many times in scripture where a certain group of people were addressed. kinda like the should men be allowed to have long hair debate. or kinda like laws that were written affecting hebrews but not necessarily all mankind.

i've made my thoughts on this subject quite clear, and in no way does what i say oppose scripture. not even does it oppose paul's letter addressing a specific church crisis. a woman who delivers a sermon should be subject to the authority of a male, and should not hold the office of being the head honcho.

I was simply making an observation, based on personal experience, LadyC.

[jackie d]

Then you are calling scripture silly and saying hogwash to the gospel. It is interesting how that whenever people don't want to apply or adhere to scripture they excuse it as being something that was meant for the church at that time, but you will never hear anybody say that scriptures like John 3:16 was only meant for the Jews or Eph 2:8,9 was only meant for the Ephesians.

you aren't hearing me, but that is okay I'm used to it. The church in America likes to keep things subdued and not explore all the Holy Spirit has to offer. Including the countless examples of women leading. So I take no offense that I am not heard. The Lord hears me.....

[Vickilynn]

I personally know plenty of women who should remain silent, and not just in church...

Shalom Bib,

AMEN!!!