Where was Jesus?

[Guest shadow2b]

Yes, because of the precious blood of Jesus, we who are believers in Him will NEVER have to know that separation. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Amen.

BUT what i'm trying to say is that Jesus did have to endure and suffer that separation momentarily in the work of redemption that was done for us.

HEYYYYYYyyyy ONEACCORD------how ya doin sis??.?? I was taught that GOD THE FATHER had to "TURN"

HIS face{ MOMENTARILY" from the SON--hence the darkness over the crucifixation site---GOD canNOT

"LOOK" on "sin" BEcause "IF" HE did sin,& the one bearing sin would be DISintegrated into NOTHINGNESS---& JESUS { TOOK UPON HIMSELF THE SIN OF THE WORLD VOLUNTARILY}---I.E. JESUS

{in HIS body took all sin; robbery,murder,immorality,idolatry,} I'LL stop there as i canNOT bear to think that JESUS was consumed {in HIS body} bearing MY individual vile UNgodly SIN-------does NOT the scripture DEclare that GOD condemned sin {in the flesh}??.??---ROM.8.vs.3-----gr.2632---condemned----to judge against--sentence--condemn---DAMN-------that i believe should EXplain the momentarily forsaking of GOD----JESUS was lefty totally alone--myGOD--the FATHER--MYGOD--the HOLY-SPIRIT------WHY hast THOU forsaken ME??.??-----------------------------------{Gary}----

[OneAccord]

Thank you Gary. I believe it is important to understand this so we can comprehend how truly awesome and terrible was His suffering for us.

[BlindSeeker]

. . . I was taught that GOD THE FATHER had to "TURN"

HIS face{ MOMENTARILY" from the SON--hence the darkness over the crucifixation site---GOD canNOT

"LOOK" on "sin" BEcause "IF" HE did sin,& the one bearing sin would be DISintegrated into

[OneAccord]

What means this verse then?

II Corinthians 5:21

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

[BlindSeeker]

What means this verse then?

II Corinthians 5:21

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

II Cor. 5:21 For He hath made Him to be sin <hamartia>, for us, who knew no sin <hamartia>; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

The proper order of this verse in the original is such -

• For He made Him who knew no sin <hamartia>, [who was innocent,] a sin-offering <hamartia> for us.
  
  
  In the second place in the original Greek <hamartia> is used it is to signify a sin-offering, or sacrifice for sin. This same greek word, <hamartia>, is the same word the used to translate the Hebrew words <chatta'ah> or <chattacth> as well as <chata'>. Both these Hebrew words signify both sin and sin-offering in a great variety of places in the Pentateuch.
  
  The translators of the Septuagint translated these Hebrew words to <hamartia> in ninety-four places in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, where a sin-offering is meant; and where our own modern versions translates the word not "sin," but an "offering for sin," or "sin offering."
  
  If the King James translators would had attended to their own method of translating the word in other places where it means the same as here, they would not have given this false view of a passage of Jesus becoming sin personified
  
  Some examples of were this Greek word translated merely as "sin" in II Cor 5:21 was use in the Septuagint are listed below.
  
  
  • Ex 29:14 But the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his dung, shalt thou burn with fire without the camp: it is a sin offering <hamartia>.
    
    Ex 29:36 And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering <hamartia> for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it.
    
    Le 4:3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering <hamartia>.
    
    Le 4:8 And he shall take off from it all the fat of the bullock for the sin offering <hamartia>; the fat that covereth the inwards, and all the fat that is upon the inwards,
    
    Le 4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering <hamartia>, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.
    21 And he shall carry forth the bullock without the camp, and burn him as he burned the first bullock: it is a sin offering <hamartia> for the congregation.
    
    
    Le 4:24 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD: it is a sin offering <hamartia>.
    25 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering <hamartia> with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering.
    
    Le 4:29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering <hamartia>, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.
    
    Le 4:32 And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering <hamartia>, he shall bring it a female without blemish.
    33 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering <hamartia>, and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.
    34 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering <hamartia> with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar:
    
    Le 5:6 And he shall bring his trespass offering <hamartia> unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering <hamartia>; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.
    7 And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the LORD; one for a sin offering <hamartia>, and the other for a burnt offering.
    8 And he shall bring them unto the priest, who shall offer that which is for the sin offering <hamartia> first, and wring off his head from his neck, but shall not divide it asunder:
    

To interpret <hamartia> to mean "sin" makes way for a most blasphemous doctrine, that our sins themselves were imputed into Christ. This teaching then proclaims that Jesus was forsaken by God and required to become the object of God's indignation and wrath, because Jesus was blackened with imputed sin.

Some have even promoted this to the point of calling Jesus Christ the greatest of sinners, because all the sins of mankind were imputed toHim and reckoned by the Father as the sins of Jesus Chriost Himself - BLASPHEMY!

This verse was even once paraphrased, "God accounted Christ the greatest of sinners, that we might be supremely righteous."

One must take care not to confuse "sin" with the punishment due sin. Jesus Christ suffered in our place. He died for us and bore our sins, meaning the punishment due us because of them. Jesus Christ did this in His own body upon the cross, not in hell. God laid upon Him the iniquities of us all, meaning, the punishment due to them.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not his mouth: He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for He was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was He stricken.

9 And He made His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; he hath put Him to grief: when Thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see H is seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

Therefore, God made Jesus to be a sin offering for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. He made His soul an offering for our sins.

One must ask, if our sins were indeed imputed into Christ, why then must we still be washed in His blood? Because His blood is our propitiation, our sin offering.

Peace

William

[JohnS]

In the second place in the original Greek <hamartia> is used it is to signify a sin-offering, or sacrifice for sin. This same greek word, <hamartia>, is the same word the used to translate the Hebrew words <chatta'ah> or <chattacth> as well as <chata'>. Both these Hebrew words signify both sin and sin-offering in a great variety of places in the Pentateuch.

How do we know that <hamartia> translates sin-offering in this instance? <Hamartia> is translated as sin 172 times in the New Testament, once as sinful and once as offense.

How about this one?

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree") Galatians 3:13

Paul does not say that Christ was made a curse for Himself. The accent is on the two words "for us." Christ is personally innocent. Personally, He did not deserve to be hanged for any crime of His own doing. But because Christ took the place of others who were sinners, He was hanged like any other transgressor. The Law of Moses leaves no loopholes. It says that a transgressor should be hanged. Who are the other sinners? We are. The sentence of death and everlasting damnation had long been pronounced over us. But Christ took all our sins and died for them on the Cross.

Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors. Isaiah 53:12

[BlindSeeker]

 

In the second place in the original Greek <hamartia> is used it is to signify a sin-offering, or sacrifice for sin. This same greek word, <hamartia>, is the same word the used to translate the Hebrew words <chatta'ah> or <chattacth> as well as <chata'>. Both these Hebrew words signify both sin and sin-offering in a great variety of places in the Pentateuch.

How do we know that <hamartia> translates sin-offering in this instance? <Hamartia> is translated as sin 172 times in the New Testament, once as sinful and once as offense.

How about this one?

I expressed my convictions in regards to "this one."

The reason I submitted the use of the same word in the Septuagint was to show that ninety-four places in it the Jewish scribes themselves used it as a translation for the Hebrew words for "sin offering." That clearly show that the word can and has been properly translated that way and is not unreasonable to consider, or to conclude, that such is the appropriate translation in II Cor. 5:21.

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree") Galatians 3:13

"Christ hath redeemed us," meaning, He has bought us with a price - His blood, or out pouring of His life.

"Being made a curse for us" meaning, Christ was made an atonement for our sins. Whatever was sacrifieced or offered as an atonement for sin was recognized by all as bearing the punishment due for sin. It is in this since that Jesus, who suffered for our transgressions, was considered as bearing the curse in His body.

Paul does not say that Christ was made a curse for Himself. The accent is on the two words "for us." Christ is personally innocent. Personally, He did not deserve to be hanged for any crime of His own doing. But because Christ took the place of others who were sinners, He was hanged like any other transgressor. The Law of Moses leaves no loopholes. It says that a transgressor should be hanged. Who are the other sinners? We are. The sentence of death and everlasting damnation had long been pronounced over us. But Christ took all our sins and died for them on the Cross.

Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.  Isaiah 53:12

Yes, no man can bear the burden of another man . . . God's law given through Moses left no loop holes. This is truly witnessed is scriptures -

• Ex 32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
  31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
  32 Yet now, if Thou wilt forgive their sin; nd if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of Thy book which Thou hast written.
  33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.
  34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.
  35 And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.
  
  Exek 14:12 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,
  13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:
  14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
  15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:
  16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.
  17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:
  18 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.
  19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:
  20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
  
  18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
  3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
  4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
  
  
  
  • Mr 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
    
    Lu 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
    
    The Law Maker is able to save and destroy. For the law was written by Him and for Him -
    
    
    • Duet 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
      
  2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.
  3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
  4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
  
  Jer 2:7 And I brought you into a plentiful country, to eat the fruit thereof and the goodness thereof; but when ye entered, ye defiled my land, and made mine heritage an abomination.
  20 For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.
  
  Jer 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.
  
  Jas 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy . . .
  

  Consider also Ezek 16:6 - end of chapter.

  Again, JohnS, there is a infinite gulf between Jesus bearing our curse for sin in His own body and Jesus becoming a curse, or becoming sin. If you wish to believe Jesus became sin, a curse, that is up to you. I feel it is gross error and gives way to heresies detracting from the glorious truth of the Gospel - God manifested in the flesh, laying down His life for humanity, being justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, believed on in the world, received up to glory, amen.

  Isaiah 53: Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

  5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.

  6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

  7 He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth: He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not his mouth.

  8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare His generation? for He was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was He stricken.

  9 And He made His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth.

  10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief: when Thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

  11 He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied: by His knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for He shall bear their iniquities.

  12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong; because He hath poured out his soul unto death: and He was numbered with the transgressors; and He bare [carried away the guilt of] the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

  Peace,

  William / BlindSeeker

[JohnS]

The reason I submitted the use of the same word in the Septuagint was to show that ninety-four places in it the Jewish scribes themselves used it as a translation for the Hebrew words for "sin offering."

Should the verse then read, For He made Him who knew no sin-offering to be sin-offering for us? After all, the words are the same. William, I read through no less than 5 commentaries (and a wonderful sermon by Spurgeon) on 2 Corinthians 5:21 and the only text I found that agreed with you was one defending Catholicism...and they pray to Mary.

[1.] As Christ, who knew no sin of his own, was made sin for us, so we, who have no righteousness of our own, are made the righteousness of God in him. [2.] Our reconciliation to God is only through Jesus Christ, and for the sake of his merit: on him therefore we must rely, and make mention of his righteousness and his only.

[BlindSeeker]

Should the verse then read, For He made Him who knew no sin-offering

[OneAccord]

I don't think anyone is disputing whether Christ was blameless or not, He most certainly was pure, holy and all that he suffered was WITHOUT CAUSE, a phrase used may times in Psalms.

I don't believe that He became a sinner either, but that our sins were laid upon Him, He bore our iniquity.

Because He bore our iniquity for us, He suffered the penalty for them as well, death. In that death He was forsaken by God, temporarily. My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?