Those Who Are Convinced Christ Will Return In Their Lifetime

[Joulre2abba]

21 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You are conflating two different things.

If I am, then it's far less than what you have thrown together.

In what scripture(s) do you derive that the two witnesses are Gentiles? Mind you I say that the verse I request must use the word- Gentile.

Further, why would you think that the Jews (having experienced so much history of hostility from Gentiles) would even pay attention to any Gentile who tells them that they need to repent of their sins?

Not only that.. but God surely knowing it, why would he send two Gentiles for a truly mission impossible (not the movie difficult but successful kind) of situation?

It makes far more sense for them to be of their own ethnicity, knowing the culture and history which provides a means of relating fully with the Jews. Even as Jesus was born of a woman of that ethnicity, raised in that culture and understanding the history.

But (according to your views) if it would really work for Gentiles to effectively persuade the Jews.. then why wasn't Jesus born of Gentile parentage? Maybe (according to your views) he would've been more successful if he had been. [It makes just as much sense to suppose that Jesus could have been born a Gentile as to say that Elijah had been.]

* "Now recognize the words John is told to write, "MEASURE" that is very important, John is told to measure something, and in essence it is the Two-witnesses callings or their Ministries on earth.

Rev. 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

A: These things are not to be interpreted allegorically but literally. The text clearly says that John "measured the temple of God" - the building.. "the altar" - where sacrifices took place.. "and them that worship therein" - that would be the Jewish High Priest(s).

Yet you allegorically state that John measured the Gentile two witnesses callings.

But you don't provide any scripture to support your assertions. Where is the scripture that states that John measured the callings of the two witnesses? And I do mean, verbatim. 

* "2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

* "The Wailing Wall is a part of the old Gentile Court the Gentiles were allowed to come to and pray etc. etc.

A: During the OT and gospels, it was only the proselyte Gentiles who could qualify to approach and pray. The Romans or Greeks could not. They didn't want to anyway unless to desecrate it. And what do we see now in the Gentile courtyard? The building of those of another religion who, to say it mildly, do not treat the Jews well.

* "So, John is giving us the Two-witnesses parameters of who they are called unto via their ministry, their job is to get Israel to REPENT. Malachi 4:/5-6 says as much, Behold I will send you Elijah BEFORE the great and dreadful day of the Lord, and he will turn Israel back unto God."

A: More of your outlandish allegory. The text clearly identifies Elijah being of Jewish descent, not of Gentile. The disciples of Jesus wanted to know if Jesus was Elijah. That was logical because both Elijah and Jesus were Jews.

Therefore with the Malachi verse in mind.. how could two non-Jewish witnesses reconcile the Jewish fathers, ie, ancestors with the Jewish children, ie, descendants?

Your assertions are iesogesically derived based on a presuppositional bias against the Jews.. that smacks of replacement theology.

* "So, the measurement is THER CALLING, go to the Jews ONLY, for only THEY can worship in the temple and at the altar, LEAVE OFF the Gentile Court means the Two-witnesses have not been sent to preach repentance unto the Gentiles, but to pray down Judgment against them."

A: Your inserted meaning is not supported by the text.

But.. I can just picture it.. as the Jews are heading toward the temple to worship God., because they can.. the two Gentile witnesses are standing in the Gentile court area.. dodging the judgement that comes upon the Gentiles (which includes the two witnesses).. as they try to get the attention of those Jews to tell them that they need to get near God.

I could speculate their responses.. The Jews would either get justifiably angry for the complete non-awareness expressed by the Gentile two witnesses projectionist condemnation.. or have a good laugh over the sheer hilarity of it.. and also be thanking God that he metes out due comeuppance upon them as representatives, for all of the ill-treatment suffered at the Gentile hands for centuries.

* "The building above is the Temple, the area surrounding it is the Gentile Court."

A: The building pictured in your post is of the previous First temple during Solomon's reign., all of the equipment.. was provided by King David.

It therefore shouldn't be used to indicate the Tribulation temple that John was told to measure.

* "Yes, he is mistaken on a lot of his End Time Eschatology."

A: You share a remarkable equality with him.

[Joulre2abba]

22 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

As per the 3, that is nuanced tbh and I never say I know something till I know it. The Beast in some manner overcomes three, so I don't see that tbh, as three nations pulling back. It could just mean the Fourth Beast took the place of the other three in Daniel and wound up ruling all the area in the end times. 

There's a lot of your post that is unrequested, so I'm only replying to what is relevant to my previous post.

* "It could just mean the Fourth Beast took the place of the other three in Daniel and wound up ruling all the area in the end times."

"I never say I know something till I know it."

A: Contradict yourself much?

* "The Beast in some manner overcomes three, so I don't see that tbh."

"It could just mean the Fourth Beast took the place of the other three in Daniel and wound up ruling all the area in the end times."

A: "all the area" is pretty generic.. always a safe statement.

I've only mentioned concerning the first events stated in Daniel because it, to my perspective could fit in measure with current events. First, the three are uprooted/removed. .. Now.. due to the fact that it's not happening yet.. There's no need for me to have bothered to mention, but I will here.. Second, the same three that removed, are (later) overcome and brought back in.

* "It could just mean the Fourth Beast took the place of the other three."

The Beast uses those three as his greatest achievement as it were, to enlarge his own previous one little horn. Which makes him the big cheese among all the other nations who have only one horn, even though they are not given any particular size.

But in the Beasts apparent case, size matters.

 

[Joulre2abba]

1 minute ago, Joulre2abba said:

The Beast uses those three as his greatest achievement as it were, to enlarge his own previous one little horn. Which makes him the big cheese among all the other nations who have only one horn, even though they are not given any particular size.

But in the Beasts apparent case, size matters.

I'd forgotten the [A:] to indicate that I wrote it.

[Joulre2abba]

21 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

It's my belief the prophets (Two Witnesses) returned will be (Enoch/Elijah) who never experienced physical death, I previously explained this in the thread

I didn't address that because I am in agreement.. however, you think they are Gentiles but that is what I disagreed with in my previous post that you made this reply to.

[Joulre2abba]

On 5/24/2022 at 7:04 AM, Shilohsfoal said:

The word fire which comes out of a military commanders mouth is just that. 

"FIRE" 

Anyone can say "FIRE". 

But the armed forces who takeaway the daily sacrifice will cause fire to come down from heaven by either of the commanders just saying the word fire. It's a common practice. 

They can even place the abomination of desolation in any city they wish and kill everyone in that city. 

They will in fact destroy many cities in that manner. 

Let's keep in mind who is in control of Jerusalem for those 42 months before we believe they are holy. 

https://biblehub.com/daniel/11-39.htm

He doesn't sound like Elijah to me. 

* "The word fire which comes out of a military commanders mouth is just that. 

"FIRE" 

Anyone can say "FIRE". 

A: But, the two witnesses are not military commanders. They are prophets. Like the prophet of the OT who called down fire to burn the sacrifice he put on it, to be a sign to the pagan priests so that they know who the real God is.. not their pagan gods.

* "But the armed forces who takeaway the daily sacrifice will cause fire to come down from heaven by either of the commanders just saying the word fire. It's a common practice."

A: But what Bible evidence is there concerning the common practices of prophets?

Daniel said only that the daily sacrifice will be taken away or ceased. There are no words there to indicate by who or how.

It's known in a letter of the apostle Paul that the lawless one (a.c.) will enter the Tribulation temple and sit in the seat - the Jewish temple furniture - mercy seat that double serves as the place of making altar sacrifices, and declare himself to be God.

* "They can even place the abomination of desolation in any city they wish and kill everyone in that city. 

They will in fact destroy many cities in that manner."

A: Provide the verse(s) that say it.. verbatim. I don't recall any such references so the words are strictly your own.

* "Let's keep in mind who is in control of Jerusalem for those 42 months before we believe they are holy.

https://biblehub.com/daniel/11-39.htm

He doesn't sound like Elijah to me."

A: The anti-christ has over-all control, but he doesn't have control of the two witnesses.

The a.c. sends armies to kill them but the two witnesses have fire coming out of their mouths that burn that army to a crisp.

The a.c. is also plenty busy with calamities because of the two commanding similar plagues to occur as those when Moses and Aaron dealt with the Egyptian Pharaoh.

The two witnesses are the strong opposition of the anti-christ who is enraged as the Pharaoh.

Are you of the opinion that neither Moses nor the two witnesses are holy? Or, would it sit better with you if a military general and all the arsenal he could muster would completely mangle the a.c.'s little red wagon?

If you'd be more comfortable with that.. then I wonder what you think about what Jesus does to the world's armies, the false prophet and the anti-christ when he returns in his Second Coming. Would you say that he's not holy because he puts the kibosh on all of them?

[Revelation Man]

14 hours ago, BeyondET said:

In one's life time huh, who could say that when simply tomorrow is no garentee

We all understand that means in a Generation per se, if one starts having kids at 30ish and the average human lives to lets say 70, it means in that lifespan of the "NORMAL LIFETIME". Of course we might all be called home in 10 minutes, but that is a red herring. Of course we are speaking in generalities. 

I mean, its a bad argument, we all know anyone can die at anytime, but in general we live to 70. So, in general the thought process seems to be in OUR GENEATIONS LIFETIME. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Revelation Man

[BeyondET]

8 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

We all understand that means in a Generation per se, if one starts having kids at 30ish and the average human lives to lets say 70, it means in that lifespan of the "NORMAL LIFETIME". Of course we might all be called home in 10 minutes, but that is a red herring. Of course we are speaking in generalities. 

I mean, its a bad argument, we all know anyone can die at anytime, but in general we live to 70. So, in general the thought process seems to be in OUR GENEATIONS LIFETIME. 

I can see that but like today there's not many around from WWII, I bet that felt like the end days. Could be another 200 years or so or more. Some today maybe even witness WWWIII yet no end days still a ways to go.

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

If I am, then it's far less than what you have thrown together.

In what scripture(s) do you derive that the two witnesses are Gentiles? Mind you I say that the verse I request must use the word- Gentile.

Might want to REREAD there, in a reply just before I stated to Shilo that they are not Elijah and Enoch (its actually in another thread he started, bit here is my reply unto him).

----------------------------

"Its Elijah and Moses imho, why else would they be seen at the mount with Jesus (configuration) just before his death?"

---------------------------

So, why would you assume I do not understand that the coming Two-witnesses are Jewish? Again, you once again seem to have conflated an issue brother.

3 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

Further, why would you think that the Jews (having experienced so much history of hostility from Gentiles) would even pay attention to any Gentile who tells them that they need to repent of their sins?

So, the above point is VOIDED. I stared the Two-witnesses are sent unto Jews ONLY, nothing more, just like Jesus was sent unto Israel ONLY. I will go back and see if there is a TYPO hold on....NOPE, its very clear, I will post my quote below so you can see your assumption is in error.

--------------------------

Not really. You are conflating two different things. What John is told to do in Rev. 11 (most don't see this tbh) is to give the PARAMETERS of the coming Two-witnesses, just like Jesus was told to ONLY GO to the Jewish peoples (Israel/Lost sheep) via his ministry.

AMD LATER IN THE POST.......

So, the measurement is THER CALLING, go to the Jews ONLY, for only THEY can worship in the temple and at the altar, LEAVE OFF the Gentile Court means the Two-witnesses have not been sent to preach repentance unto the Gentiles, but to pray down Judgment against them.

---------------------------

I truly do not understand how anyone can confuse or conflate what I said, its very matter of fact and to the point. Had your coffee today? 

 

3 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

Not only that.. but God surely knowing it, why would he send two Gentiles for a truly mission impossible (not the movie difficult but successful kind) of situation?

It makes far more sense for them to be of their own ethnicity, knowing the culture and history which provides a means of relating fully with the Jews. Even as Jesus was born of a woman of that ethnicity, raised in that culture and understanding the history.

I would like you to show me WHAT SENTENCE so confused you brother. Its a mystery to me, you wasted a lot of effort trying to defeat a NON POINT. 

3 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

But (according to your views) if it would really work for Gentiles to effectively persuade the Jews.. then why wasn't Jesus born of Gentile parentage? Maybe (according to your views) he would've been more successful if he had been. [It makes just as much sense to suppose that Jesus could have been born a Gentile as to say that Elijah had been.]

Again, this would be a great argument if anyone made that kind of point, but...........lol

3 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

* "Now recognize the words John is told to write, "MEASURE" that is very important, John is told to measure something, and in essence it is the Two-witnesses callings or their Ministries on earth.

Rev. 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

A: These things are not to be interpreted allegorically but literally. The text clearly says that John "measured the temple of God" - the building.. "the altar" - where sacrifices took place.. "and them that worship therein" - that would be the Jewish High Priest(s).

Yet you allegorically state that John measured the Gentile two witnesses callings.

WRONG.....He Measured the Two-witnesses CALLING/Ministry, I never stated ANYWHERE tat they were Gentiles. But down the apple cider sir, its gone hard. You are a champion CONFLATOR I will give you that. 

I order to understand my point REVERSE EVERY THOUGH YOU HAD, I stated the Two-witnesses were ONLY CALLED to get Israel to REPENT. 

I can't reply to anymore of this, its a waste of time, you are the champion inflator or the champion troller. In do not see hw anyone can get that confused sir by a simple post.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

There's a lot of your post that is unrequested, so I'm only replying to what is relevant to my previous post.

I will do the same and just ASSUME you CONFLATED IT ALL ANYWAY.

The Great Conflator

[Shilohsfoal]

1 hour ago, Joulre2abba said:

* "The word fire which comes out of a military commanders mouth is just that. 

"FIRE" 

Anyone can say "FIRE". 

A: But, the two witnesses are not military commanders. They are prophets. Like the prophet of the OT who called down fire to burn the sacrifice he put on it, to be a sign to the pagan priests so that they know who the real God is.. not their pagan gods.

* "But the armed forces who takeaway the daily sacrifice will cause fire to come down from heaven by either of the commanders just saying the word fire. It's a common practice."

A: But what Bible evidence is there concerning the common practices of prophets?

Daniel said only that the daily sacrifice will be taken away or ceased. There are no words there to indicate by who or how.

It's known in a letter of the apostle Paul that the lawless one (a.c.) will enter the Tribulation temple and sit in the seat - the Jewish temple furniture - mercy seat that double serves as the place of making altar sacrifices, and declare himself to be God.

* "They can even place the abomination of desolation in any city they wish and kill everyone in that city. 

They will in fact destroy many cities in that manner."

A: Provide the verse(s) that say it.. verbatim. I don't recall any such references so the words are strictly your own.

* "Let's keep in mind who is in control of Jerusalem for those 42 months before we believe they are holy.

https://biblehub.com/daniel/11-39.htm

He doesn't sound like Elijah to me."

A: The anti-christ has over-all control, but he doesn't have control of the two witnesses.

The a.c. sends armies to kill them but the two witnesses have fire coming out of their mouths that burn that army to a crisp.

The a.c. is also plenty busy with calamities because of the two commanding similar plagues to occur as those when Moses and Aaron dealt with the Egyptian Pharaoh.

The two witnesses are the strong opposition of the anti-christ who is enraged as the Pharaoh.

Are you of the opinion that neither Moses nor the two witnesses are holy? Or, would it sit better with you if a military general and all the arsenal he could muster would completely mangle the a.c.'s little red wagon?

If you'd be more comfortable with that.. then I wonder what you think about what Jesus does to the world's armies, the false prophet and the anti-christ when he returns in his Second Coming. Would you say that he's not holy because he puts the kibosh on all of them?

Your the one who says Jesus puts the kibosh on them. 

Not me. 

As for the two witnesses, they are removed from Christ's kingdom and because they were removed before the last trump, they do not put on immortality.They remain corruptible.