Christ was First but not first

[DeighAnn]

ALL GLORY TO GOD

 

We have Enoch and Elijah who 'alive' were changed and raised up to heaven,  an example of the alive and remaining 'will be changed' to join the Lord and the armies of heaven when they return to begin the Lords Day.  

We also have BY NAME Abraham, Isaac, Jacob who, though they weren't 'changed' (their FLESH was left behind to be buried when the spirit/soul/SEED body/breath left) they also were raised up to heaven aka 'never died' just like those who under GRACE.  THEY NEVER became a part of the dead waiting to be resurrected at a later time,  because OF SIN.  They were the examples of what would happen under the New Covenant for those SAVED under GRACE, going to be where HE IS.  They may have been living  'under the law'  of the day, yet they came to faith, just like we do, under grace.  

We know this because 

Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

or

Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

If one could have been 'perfect' under the law, he would NOT have gone to be with the dead because he would have had no sin.  

NO SIN equals NO DEATH because DEATH IS THE WAGES OF SIN. 



Jesus was the first to be raised OUT FROM THE DEAD.  

He was not the first to be raised up to heaven  

BUT

HE WAS the FIRST to be raised OUT from the dead, the first of those who died with sin, whos wages were death.  His was IMPUTED, His were the sins of the world, but they were also needed to descend, to defeat the bonds of death, to preach the good news

SO,

 His status of FIRST is NOT ONLY  from 'OUT from the dead',  but ALSO in rank, as in COMMANDER IN CHIEF just not in order of events


I believe, anyhow.

 

Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Romans 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

You stated: "the first of those who died with sin"

Correct me if I am misunderstanding this statement but it sounds like you are saying that ( God forbid) Jesus had sin. Surely that's not what you mean. 

That is the 'take away'?     ok    

TO BE CLEAR for everyone who is thinking the same thing,  I ABSOLUTELY APOLOGIZE for not giving Scripture.  (Though it saddens me immensely that that is the thought that was provoked by what was put forth).  
 

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

1 Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

1 Peter 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

AND

The One not having known sin, for us sin He made, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.  

 

[JohnD]

On 5/31/2022 at 1:20 PM, DeighAnn said:

ALL GLORY TO GOD

 

We have Enoch and Elijah who 'alive' were changed and raised up to heaven,  an example of the alive and remaining 'will be changed' to join the Lord and the armies of heaven when they return to begin the Lords Day.  

We also have BY NAME Abraham, Isaac, Jacob who, though they weren't 'changed' (their FLESH was left behind to be buried when the spirit/soul/SEED body/breath left) they also were raised up to heaven aka 'never died' just like those who under GRACE.  THEY NEVER became a part of the dead waiting to be resurrected at a later time,  because OF SIN.  They were the examples of what would happen under the New Covenant for those SAVED under GRACE, going to be where HE IS.  They may have been living  'under the law'  of the day, yet they came to faith, just like we do, under grace.  

We know this because 

Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

or

Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

If one could have been 'perfect' under the law, he would NOT have gone to be with the dead because he would have had no sin.  

NO SIN equals NO DEATH because DEATH IS THE WAGES OF SIN. 



Jesus was the first to be raised OUT FROM THE DEAD.  

He was not the first to be raised up to heaven  

BUT

HE WAS the FIRST to be raised OUT from the dead, the first of those who died with sin, whos wages were death.  His was IMPUTED, His were the sins of the world, but they were also needed to descend, to defeat the bonds of death, to preach the good news

SO,

 His status of FIRST is NOT ONLY  from 'OUT from the dead',  but ALSO in rank, as in COMMANDER IN CHIEF just not in order of events


I believe, anyhow.

 

Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Romans 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

"Living" in the same sense as we live on Earth at this moment?

Or "living" (at the time) in Sheol  (Luke 16:19-31) as disembodied spirits (having died)?

Remember also:

John 3:13 (AV)
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Even those Jesus took to Heaven (while his body was in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights) Ephesians 4:8-10 / Luke 23:43 were disembodied spirits (2 Corinthians 5:8).

 

[JohnD]

Christ is the firstborn from the dead (resurrected) and the only resurrected man in Heaven until the general resurrection of the dead.

Until then, when people die we are disembodied spirits believers bound for Heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8) or unbelievers bound for Sheol (Luke 16:22b-23).

Then Jesus returns with his saints (Jude 14) to be reunited with their dead bodies (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) and the saints still living are changed (1 Corinthians 15:51-57)

and Revelation 20:11-15 the resurrection of all.

 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

"Living" in the same sense as we live on Earth at this moment?

Or "living" (at the time) in Sheol  (Luke 16:19-31) as disembodied spirits (having died)?

Remember also:

John 3:13 (AV)
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Even those Jesus took to Heaven (while his body was in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights) Ephesians 4:8-10 / Luke 23:43 were disembodied spirits (2 Corinthians 5:8).

 

Dear John,  what I believe is, 

No earthen FLESH has ever ascended and never will, is how I read it.  The reason Christs did is because it was/is GOD's body,  I SPECULATE, and I just  don't think it could 'go back to dust' because it would be like some sort of 'magic' dust.  Even while He walked the earth He was different, walking on water, disappearing in the middle of crowds etc. and He was in likeness, but I still  think He was still different being (and the reason He had to go through so much before He even got to he cross and why He had to 'give up' the ghost)

You say 2 Corinth 5:8 states disembodied spirits, but I must disagree.  We are told to read the words of God precept on precept precept on precept verse by verse.....and in doing so  I READ 1 Corinth 15 before I ever got to 2 Corinth and what I learned there was 
 

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

so you can see, by the time I arrived to 2 Corinth I ALREADY knew EVERY SEED had his own body so TO ME 2 Cor 5:8 reads to be absent from this body can comfortably be read as having received the spiritual body  from GOD, as it hath pleased HIM.  I hope this NICELY explains better what I wrote before. 

And if that didn't explain it well enough also in that chapter I read 

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
 

What I didn't read was we 'return' for a body or we go to heaven 'disembodied'.  



As for LIVING as we do now?  YES, but in the UNSEEN realm that this world will be able to see when CHRIST returns.  There will be NO ONE who will not see HIS return as it is not just an 'age' that is changed but a REALM.  We see heaven OPENED and that is spiritual.  And I think that point is really brought home by 
 

1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 
Do you see what that says?  It is the REASON there is no coming BACK to receive a 'resurrected glorified' body.   IF YOU ARE AN INHERITOR OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD it is because you are RETURNING with Him, not being resurrected FROM THE DECAY.   The DEAD are resurrected from the CORRUPTION.  The LIVING aka 'never die' are gone to 'be with the Lord', where He is, in the place He prepared for us, BEFORE the carcass even gets sown into the dust of the earth.  

The DEAD who rise at the return of Christ CAN NOT (at that point) become inheritors and won't be able to until they are JUDGED,  and THE DEAD are judged at the  GWTJ, 1000 years later.  It is at that point we will know WHO of the dead that 'rose at His coming' was found JUST and so was raised to everlasting life and who of the dead was found unjust and so will go into the LOF.  

Praise ye the Lord


You can see why this also applies to 

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)



And as for Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise, Jesus didn't say 'your spirit' will be with me,  but YOU.  



Do you know of any disembodied spirits written of that aren't 'evil' spirits?  

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

Christ is the firstborn from the dead (resurrected) and the only resurrected man in Heaven until the general resurrection of the dead.

Until then, when people die we are disembodied spirits believers bound for Heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8) or unbelievers bound for Sheol (Luke 16:22b-23).

Then Jesus returns with his saints (Jude 14) to be reunited with their dead bodies (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) and the saints still living are changed (1 Corinthians 15:51-57)

and Revelation 20:11-15 the resurrection of all.

 

Could you please show me what Scripture you find this belief in?  

How do you get 'reunited'' with dead bodies from this I don't understand, because this is what I believe and where you say you see that written, is where I see this written and maybe you will understand why that is so hard for me to believe.  BUT I figure, if you are correct, you will put this explanation to shame and set me on the 'right path'.  If not hopefully this might do the same for you...
 

1  Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

(I JUST don't see a 'reunion' of any sort)

So,

Peoples 'earthen vessels die'

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

You know what would make me sad?  If I thought my loved one went to HELL where the AGONY of death was their new existence.  




But, as I see it,  those who are born from above, are SAVED, having received the gift of salvation, Christ tasting death so that we only pass through it and so rise just like He did and the LIVING, NEVER DIE

will be RETURNING with HIM

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

And there is no PREVENTING those who have died from going to be with the Lord.  NO ONE is waiting until the alive and remaining will be changed.  Every man goes to God in their own order.  If you died in century 1 you went to heaven in century 1.  If you died in century 2000 you went to the Lord in century 2000.  No one is waiting on anyone else.  In the order you die is the order you go to the Lord in heaven and that is all the way to when

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.



The resurrection of the JUST AND THE UNJUST.  None of them have ever been SAVED (FROM DEATH) or else they would have  NEVER DIED and would not be being raised up from the dead.  They died and are DEAD, waiting for the return of Christ because they didn't believe in Jesus while they were ALIVE.  They were spiritually DEAD when the DIED, and when they are raised up they are  STILL spiritually dead, and so must AWAIT judgment in 1000 years to find out if that resurrection was to everlasting life or the LOF.  They went into the grave BECAUSE THEIR NAMES were not written in the book of Life from the foundation of the world,  but they MIGHT have their names written in the books that are opened at the end of the LORDS DAY, a DAY in which we are PRIESTS teaching the words of God to those (the SPIRITUALLY DEAD)  who didn't learn them before they died, Priests to rule and reign and teach the DEAD who will be judged at the GWTJ.  NOTICE WHO ISN'T JUDGED AT THE GWTJ?  The living.  They were at the Judgment seat of Christ IN HEAVEN.  They GOT TO SEE GOD IN HIS KINGDOM, something the DEAD never ever will get to see.  

JESUS came so that SATAN didn't get to 'hold' onto GODS people when they died like he got to do under the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.  The blood of the Lamb slain washed them CLEAN and being FREED FROM DEATH because the wages of SIN is death and if your SINS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN then there is NOTHING that causes you to descend in death but you NEVER DIE because you have been washed clean and you continue on living WITH HIM, where HE WENT, where HE PREPARED by HIS DEATH a place for you to go that  ISN'T HADES.  

THE GIFT OF SALVATION IS ETERNAL LIFE.  Something that we possess, not in the future, BUT NOW.  GOD didn't like HIS CHILDREN going to Hades because they had 'a sin'.  THEY had 'a sin' BECAUSE IT TOOK A RITUAL TO GET RID OF THAT SIN.  And if you were not walking away having just gone through that ritual,  you most likely HAD BROKEN SOME LAW. 

How many people went to hell AFTER striving their entire lives to be holy under the law (and did a MUCH BETTER JOB at walking holy than almost all Christians today could/would) but NOT BEING UNDER GRACE, not being able to have that change of heart and IN THE NAME OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR CHRIST JESUS repent and be forgiven ALMOST INSTANTLY for their sins and EVEN if they missed that last repentance having the PEACE of knowing that HIS BLOOD would still wash you clean and you would be saved from death, safe from even the worry that the bondage of death would hold by having BEEN BORN AGAIN.   

1  Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


Why do you suppose those dead rise first?  So they don't MISS THE GLORY OF THE LORD, the LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS BRINGING in the kingdom that was once rejected.  They get to see the power and beauty of the ALIVE and REMAINING being changed and joined up with the armies.  


1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I got rid of most of the capitol letters, which are passion, not yelling.  And yes, Jesus returns with His saints, NOT TO GET THEM.  

[DeighAnn]

Hebrews 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Hebrews 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

Hebrews 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Hebrews 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

[BeyondET]

On 5/31/2022 at 2:20 PM, DeighAnn said:

ALL GLORY TO GOD

 

We have Enoch and Elijah who 'alive' were changed and raised up to heaven,  an example of the alive and remaining 'will be changed' to join the Lord and the armies of heaven when they return to begin the Lords Day.  

We also have BY NAME Abraham, Isaac, Jacob who, though they weren't 'changed' (their FLESH was left behind to be buried when the spirit/soul/SEED body/breath left) they also were raised up to heaven aka 'never died' just like those who under GRACE.  THEY NEVER became a part of the dead waiting to be resurrected at a later time,  because OF SIN.  They were the examples of what would happen under the New Covenant for those SAVED under GRACE, going to be where HE IS.  They may have been living  'under the law'  of the day, yet they came to faith, just like we do, under grace.  

We know this because 

Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

or

Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

If one could have been 'perfect' under the law, he would NOT have gone to be with the dead because he would have had no sin.  

NO SIN equals NO DEATH because DEATH IS THE WAGES OF SIN. 



Jesus was the first to be raised OUT FROM THE DEAD.  

He was not the first to be raised up to heaven  

BUT

HE WAS the FIRST to be raised OUT from the dead, the first of those who died with sin, whos wages were death.  His was IMPUTED, His were the sins of the world, but they were also needed to descend, to defeat the bonds of death, to preach the good news

SO,

 His status of FIRST is NOT ONLY  from 'OUT from the dead',  but ALSO in rank, as in COMMANDER IN CHIEF just not in order of events


I believe, anyhow.

 

Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Romans 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

Elijah didn't go to the throne or wasn't transformed. That is known because Elijah was still on earth years later, for he wrote a letter to King Jehoram of Judah. (2 Chronicles 21:1, 12-15)

Heavens especially in the OT doesn't always refer to the throne of God. 

There's only been One. The Son of Man.

Edited July 6, 2022 by BeyondET

[JohnD]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Could you please show me what Scripture you find this belief in?  

< snip >

Certainly:

Revelation 1:5 (AV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

 

[JohnD]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Could you please show me what Scripture you find this belief in?  

How do you get 'reunited'' with dead bodies from this I don't understand, because this is what I believe and where you say you see that written, is where I see this written and maybe you will understand why that is so hard for me to believe.  BUT I figure, if you are correct, you will put this explanation to shame and set me on the 'right path'.  If not hopefully this might do the same for you...
 

1  Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

(I JUST don't see a 'reunion' of any sort)

 

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (AV)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Pays to keep reading. {smile}