The Correct Chronology of Revelation Chapters 6 and 7

[The Light]

11 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Chapter 4:1-4 of Revelation starts out:  

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald. Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

In chapter 3, John has already addressed the churches on the earth and then he looked up, and a door to heaven was open.  So who is speaking?  It’s John, right?  No church is in heaven yet, but there will be when Jesus returns to earth at the 7th trump. 

The 24 elders, WITH CROWNS shows that Jesus has returned. The kings and priests in heaven in Revelation 5 show that the Church is in heaven as Rev 1 show that Jesus will make kings and priests of the Church. So what you are saying is totally incorrect.

11 hours ago, Selah7 said:

 

The trumpet that John hears is the last trumpet and it’s talking to him.  At this time, the church hasn’t gone anywhere.  There is only John being taken to heaven in the spirit and hearing a voice like a trumpet calling him up. Remember that John was taken from 90 A.D. to a time in the future.  The 4th chapter basically tells us what’s going to happen after this final generation when Jesus returns to earth on the Day of the Lord.

Chapter 4 has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Day of the Lord. Chapter 4 and 5 shows that the Church will be in heaven BEFORE THE SEALS ARE OPENED. The first 6 seals are the tribulation period, the time of JACOBS TROUBLE. The seventh seal is the wrath of God, the first year of the Day of the Lord.

11 hours ago, Selah7 said:

In chapter 5, the song that the children of God will sing when Jesus returns is recorded in the 15th chapter of Revelation; it's called the “Song of Moses.”  If we are one of God's children, then God is preparing us to be His kings and priests in His kingdom and we shall reign with Him on the earth.

You are very confused. It is the Church in heaven in Revelation 4 and 5. These chapters have nothing to do with those singing the song of Moses in Chapter 15. You have slim chance to catch this, but those singing the song of Moses are those of the seed of the woman who are raptured at the 6th seal. They are part of the great multitude. Those 144,000 are first fruits of this harvest.

[WilliamL]

On 1/3/2023 at 8:10 PM, The Light said:

This is just the ground work of what you must understand.

[I agree with your 4 points.]

If you think that the seals are already open, you are not going to understand. If you don't realize that what John tells you in Revelation 6 is exactly what Jesus is telling you in Matthew 24, you are lost before you begin.

[Again, I agree with you thus far.]

On 1/3/2023 at 9:18 PM, The Light said:

When we look back at Revelation 7 we see there is a great multitude. THAT IS THE HARVEST. That should tell you that the 144,000 have been redeemed from the earth  (in Revelation 14) BEFORE the harvest of the great multitude (in Revelation 7).

Here is where we disagree. Note that the great multitude is standing before "the throne [in heaven]...and His temple" (7:14), which by definition makes them firstfruits. Only the firstfruits of the harvest are taken to the temple.

On 1/3/2023 at 9:18 PM, The Light said:

Revelation 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

This is the harvest. Those harvested at this time do not go up to the temple, they remain on the earth. Whereas the great multitude and the 144,000 do go up to the temple, both being firstfruits.

My detailed explanation of the difference between "The Firstfruits and the Harvest" can be found here:

57. The Firstfruits and the Harvest 2.0; Part 1

An upgrade of article #24. Explains the prophetic application of OT laws about the firstfruits, the firstborn, and the full harvest, as these laws relate to the End Times. https://worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2686-the-firstfruits-and-the-harvest-20-part-1/

The distinction that you have missed is that there are TWO firstfruits offerings: the "first of the firstfruits," and the fullness of the firstfruits. The prototype of the former was the sheaf brought to the priest on the Sunday after the Passover. The prototype of the latter was the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost/Firstfruits, which came 7 weeks later.

[The Light]

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Here is where we disagree. Note that the great multitude is standing before "the throne [in heaven]...and His temple" (7:14), which by definition makes them firstfruits. Only the firstfruits of the harvest are taken to the temple.

On the surface you would be correct, only the firstfruits are taken to the Temple. There would be no need to take the harvest to the Temple as the harvest is consumed.

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

This is the harvest.

Yes. It is the harvest.

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Those harvested at this time do not go up to the temple, they remain on the earth.

This is where we disagree. Those harvested do go to the Temple.

Revelation 3

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

And here are those that are harvested in heaven.

Revelation 15

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

 

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

[The Light]

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Whereas the great multitude and the 144,000 do go up to the temple, both being firstfruits.

 

Here is something you are not understanding. The great multitude is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Also, those that are harvested In Revelation 14 are part of the great multitude in Revelation 7. Additionally, the 144,000 are part of the great multitude in Revelation 7. 

[tatwo]

On 1/4/2023 at 8:30 AM, The Light said:

I believe in common sense and reading what the Word says and accepting what it says. The Bible explains the Bible.

The Light...

It is the child…the immature…the carnal minded who see the scriptures as simply written words…it has to be that way so they can grow…to them it is spiritual food…nourishing milk…in time they should be ready for the solid food of maturity.

That being said…there is a wisdom that is spoken among the spiritually mature. Typically coming from the same scriptures that the immature are reading…this is wisdom that didn’t originate in this present age…God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory…meaning that God saw the end of creation before creation existed. The Holy Spirit sees and understands all of this…

This is why the Scriptures say: Yet hidden in our Lord are things never discovered or heard of before, things beyond our ability to imagine…these are the many things God has in store for all his Sons. This solid food is for the mature, whose spiritual senses perceive heavenly matters.

Clearly the Holy Spirit of the living God is still bringing us His wisdom to understand His mysteries…there is nothing “common” about what He has kept hidden in Himself until the time He reveals it to His Sons…and He will continue to do so until the purpose for which He put creation in place is complete.

Those who do not understand these principals…are sometimes spiritual children…sometimes the carnal minded…too immature to feed on the solid food…if they do not grow…the only option for them is…they will fall away…apostatize…and die spiritually.

There is an example of this in John 5…these religious men…some of them leaders…searched and examined the scriptures closely…these were the men who were seeking to kill the Lord Yahshua no less…imagine that scenario?

Yahshua openly confronts them all…acknowledges that they were the “examiners of the scriptures” to which Yahshua explains…it is in those very scriptures that you are searching for eternal life…that reveals Me…who I am and…tell you all about me…yet you do not hear me...see me...nor is my "Word" living in you...because you don't trust the one who is sent.

You can read and study the scriptures that are all about Him…believe whatever you think you are learning from them…and still not be able to recognize Him or hear Him or have His word in you…even if He was standing in front of you talking to you…how can that be?

The “Word” is not simply a collection letters assembled upon paper in an orderly fashion and bound into a book that you can read chapter and verse…He is “alive…and active” unless you know Him that way…you are just as dead as the written word.

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

On 1/4/2023 at 8:30 AM, The Light said:

You can't seem to find a rapture, and yet there are raptures found many, many places. How you miss these things that are written is not something that I can comprehend.

No need to trouble yourself…Bro…it’s not an issue of your incomprehension at all “The Light”…I think you may have simply misinterpreted my position concerning the issue…I am well familiar with the Greek word/concept “Harpazó” to seize, catch up, snatch away…additionally I understand it’s typical use in the scripture. I was simply trying to find out what you believe…now I know.

[tatwo]

On 1/4/2023 at 8:30 AM, The Light said:

The Lord says he goes to prepare a place for us........In His Father's house. That's all we need to know.

Maybe…there was a time when I was like His disciples…I wanted to know more about His leaving…where did He go…and…this “prepared place”…and what constitutes “His Father’s house” and what he meant by “I will come again and take you to myself”

Like…did He do it? If so…when? Did He come again and take me to Himself? I take it personally…I mean…He says that I will be there with Him and that I know the way…ok then…let’s go!

Now I know these things…and am very glad that I do…let me explain…even though you don’t seem interested in such small and unimportant frivolities…”The Light.”

His Father’s house is the temple of God…which Christ is building…in which God Himself dwells…as Christ…I remember Paul saying that if I have the Holy Spirit dwelling in me…that my body is a temple of God…Paul also says that the body of Christ is being fitted together and growing into the Holy Temple of God.

So…by simple discernment…I can see what the Lord means by “My Fathers house”…do you “The Light?”

Here it is Bro…in part…you need to see some of this on your own.

“I am going to prepare a place for you”…upon the completion of His earthly journey and His…death…burial…and resurrection…He ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things…this constituted the Fathers complete acceptance of His living sacrifice…then…He is given all authority in heaven and on earth…so He is the supreme commander of eternity…this prepared place is starting to look really awesome.

“In my Father’s House”…did you know…”Christ” is the temple known as the Fathers house? Consider that Solomon built this awesome temple for the Lord…but the Most High doesn’t live in a house made by humans…hence “Christ…Holy Spirit…God”…is building His temple on the earth out of Holy Spirit born humans that comprise His Body…there’s my “prepared place”…it’s in His body…in Him! Whoa…btw…I am there right now while on earth…writing to you.

“I will come again and take you to myself”…when He fills us with His Holy Spirit…He indwells our spirits with His…He is in me as the Holy Spirit…and I am in Him…we are one…and He is raising me up just as a loving Father raises His beloved Son…I am hidden with Christ in God.

So this means that I am a beloved Son of God living in my Father’s house on earth today…interacting with my Father at all times…He is in me…loving me and making me more like Him every day…He reveals Himself to me daily…increasingly…from what I have experienced…and I would not want anything else…ever.

“That’s all we need to know”…“The Light.”

Yet…the Holy Spirit in me has called me uniquely…as He does all of His own…and it is His desire that I completely fulfill His purpose for my life…just as Yahshua did…and by His grace I will…the maturation of His body is here on the earth Bro…

[tatwo]

On 1/4/2023 at 8:30 AM, The Light said:

We don't need divine revelation to understand what is written. The word is not of private interpretation. Just read what it says and accept what it says.

“The Light”…it was divine revelation given to men…that inspired them to pen the scriptures…and because of that…it “absolutely” requires that same divine revelation to interpret any of it. Without the mind of God revealing His divine intention to you…the bible is just a book…a story…a collection of writings.

“We don't need divine revelation to understand what is written” This was the exact attitude of the those charged with slaying all the righteous from Abel on…it is the mind set against Christ that speaks these words…antichrist. 

This completely explains the condescension with which you approach not only the scripture…but people here on the forum as well. 

The absence of “love one another as I have loved you” in all your posts clearly reveals your “heart.”  

Your quote from above…are the words of the Satan himself…

Tatwo...:)

[The Light]

6 hours ago, tatwo said:

The Light...

It is the child…the immature…the carnal minded who see the scriptures as simply written words…it has to be that way so they can grow…to them it is spiritual food…nourishing milk…in time they should be ready for the solid food of maturity.

That being said…there is a wisdom that is spoken among the spiritually mature. Typically coming from the same scriptures that the immature are reading…this is wisdom that didn’t originate in this present age…God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory…meaning that God saw the end of creation before creation existed. The Holy Spirit sees and understands all of this…

 

That's not at all what I said. The scripture is the inerrant Word of God. 

This is what I said. "I believe in common sense and reading what the Word says and accepting what it says. The Bible explains the Bible."

2 Peter 1

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

There it is. No prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. Holy men of God spoke what we are reading. We are to read what it says and accept what it says. The reason the majority do not understand prophecy is because they are too busy making things up when the answer is already given. They look for divine revelation from God, and not realizing that the divine revelation is already there to read. It is not of private interpretation. No need to make anything up. No need to get divine revelation. The divine revelation is already there. 

[The Light]

6 hours ago, tatwo said:

“The Light”…it was divine revelation given to men…that inspired them to pen the scriptures…and because of that…it “absolutely” requires that same divine revelation to interpret any of it. Without the mind of God revealing His divine intention to you…the bible is just a book…a story…a collection of writings.

As I said in the previous post, the revelation given by God was given to Holy men of God. It is not of private interpretation. What is written is exactly what we are to believe. When people start breaking out their private interpretations such as the "the 144,000 is the Church", or "the 144,000 is all of Israel", and they have ALL THIS REVELATION, I always find myself shaking my head. The 144,000 are 12,000 virgins from 12 tribes. Simple. You will never understand the Word of God until you believe, EXACTLY what is written.

6 hours ago, tatwo said:

“We don't need divine revelation to understand what is written” This was the exact attitude of the those charged with slaying all the righteous from Abel on…it is the mind set against Christ that speaks these words…antichrist. 

This completely explains the condescension with which you approach not only the scripture…but people here on the forum as well. 

The absence of “love one another as I have loved you” in all your posts clearly reveals your “heart.”  

Your quote from above…are the words of the Satan himself…

Tatwo...:)

There is a reason Jesus constantly said, "It is written" We are to believe what is written. What is written is the Word of God. Sadly, those that want to change what is written with their private interpretations will NEVER understand the Word of God.

As to your comment about my quote.....are the words of Satan himself.... Let's take a look see at your quote.

"We are not waiting and watching in expectation of the return of the Christ who is sitting on His throne…in His temple…ruling His kingdom here on earth and in heaven today. The rapture crowd does not see the signs of the times…They are likely to miss Him altogether."

That is not something that my Father would say. Here is what "is written".

Mark 13

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

It's pretty obvious that you are not watching for the master to return as He instructed. I can't help the blind to see. I can only show you what is written.