What was wrong with being under the law?

[DeighAnn]

On 7/30/2022 at 7:24 AM, DPMartin said:

there's nothing wrong with being under the law. this life in the flesh is always under some law, depending on what nation you are in. in the case of the law by the hand of Moses, it was given by the Lord God of Israel, and not of men, for the soul purpose of a nation that is God's people, serving the accommodation of the coming of the Messiah (God with them). Israel has always been the accommodation of the Presence of their God with them.

 

the change is the service isn't necessary anymore, the Christ has come to fulfill the law.

Did you know that Abraham was a gentile and not of Israel?  Maybe something everyone knows, but thought I would point it out because when it was first pointed out to me,  it really made me stop and think (I had never realized that) and gave me a new perspective on the Nation of Israel as a whole (and it was someone here, if I am not mistaken)

God picked Abraham out of all the gentile nations, to give the world HIS written Word/Law/History and from him up until the birth of Christ such perfect records of the 'bloodline' were kept, and none other after it (at least not in my Bible that I know of)  

[Tzephanyahu]

Hi @DeighAnn

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Thank you for the response.

You're welcome.

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

What happened to the soul/spirit/bodies of those who died 'perfect' as opposed to one who died in sin? 

When they died and when we die the same thing happens.  The spirit returns to Yahweh, the body returns to the dust and the soul is sent to Sheol.

Sheol is often translated in English Bibles as "the grave", which is unfortunate, as it is an actual location in the depths of the Earth.  Sheol is split into several divisions, but to keep things simple there is basically a "dark side" and a "light side". (The light side is sometimes referred to as Abraham's Bosom because of Luke 16:19-31.)

So to answer your question, the souls of those who were righteous now rest in this light side of Sheol and this is also where the saints will go when they die.  As for the unrighteous, they go into the "dark side" of Sheol, awaiting the inevitable Judgement Day.    

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

How did Jesus defeating death, paying the penalty for sin, and the ransom for souls in prison, change what happened at death? 

Nothing has changed.  The souls of all the righteous and the unrighteous will still go into their respective division in Sheol when they die.  All will wait in there until the Resurrection, which is when Sheol gives everyone back, like a womb giving birth.  Remember, all will be resurrected, not just the righteous (see Daniel 12).  The unrighteous will be resurrected in shame and to face the Judgement.  The righteous will be raised in a renewed body or "born again" to start their new lives in New Jerusalem.  

Therefore, Jesus' life, death and resurrection didn't change this natural process any more than he changed the way people are born.  That wasn't the purpose of His mission.  But since He came the light side of Sheol has been filling up a lot more than ever before!  HalleluYah.

I hope something in all of that blabbering is useful to you.

Peace.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Tzephanyahu

[JohnD]

Ezekiel 18:4 (AV)
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20 (AV)
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

2 Chronicles 6:36 (AV)
36 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;

Isaiah 64:6 (AV)
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

The Law was given to condemn and convict humanity but establishing the code between God's righteousness and man's sin and man's so-called righteousness. With the temporary atonement of Levitical sacrifice, the Law clearly proves mankind cannot live up to the expectation of God's righteousness. And to seek eternal salvation / forgiveness through the Law is utterly futile. God's mercy must be sought out instead.

There are prophetic hints in the Old Testament Tanakh (above) and in 1 Chronicles 21 when David had a census of the people taken. When given a choice of penalties (the Law, if you will), David chose to appeal to God's mercy (Grace) instead:

1 Chronicles 21:13 (AV)
13 And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let me fall now into the hand of the LORD; for very great are his mercies: but let me not fall into the hand of man.

Psalm 51 (AV)
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.
1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

There are actually two Laws. The Law of sin and death and the Law of Grace.

Romans 8:2 (AV)
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Jeremiah 31:31–34 (AV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

[JohnD]

Galatians 3:24–28 (AV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

[Keiw1]

On 7/14/2022 at 12:58 PM, DeighAnn said:

What was wrong with being under the law? Why weren't we just given the Holy Spirit to help us follow the law perfectly?  Besides the rituals (blood sacrifice), temple and priests being all wrapped up in Christ, what else changed?  

 

Israelites-Gods chosen fell over and over because they could not live up to the law. And as well the things they did were not from the heart a lot of times. The NT says-Law will be written on ones heart in the new covenant. The new covenant is LOVE. If one has that love Jesus taught, those hearts would not steal from their brothers, would not have any other God before their face, would not commit adultery on a mate, would not kill their brothers, etc,etc all the way down the line. 

Tithing was a written law, but Jesus gave a parable-The Pharisees and them all gave a tithe, a little old woman gave 2 small coins out of love. Jesus said her gift had more value than all of those tithes combined. 

So i say with that parable, the teachers asking for tithes, do not know Jesus, they are these-2Cor 11:12-15)--Jesus wants from the heart, not by written law like the Pharisees gave.

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Keiw1 said:

Israelites-Gods chosen fell over and over because they could not live up to the law. And as well the things they did were not from the heart a lot of times. The NT says-Law will be written on ones heart in the new covenant. The new covenant is LOVE. If one has that love Jesus taught, those hearts would not steal from their brothers, would not have any other God before their face, would not commit adultery on a mate, would not kill their brothers, etc,etc all the way down the line. 

Tithing was a written law, but Jesus gave a parable-The Pharisees and them all gave a tithe, a little old woman gave 2 small coins out of love. Jesus said her gift had more value than all of those tithes combined. 

So i say with that parable, the teachers asking for tithes, do not know Jesus, they are these-2Cor 11:12-15)--Jesus wants from the heart, not by written law like the Pharisees gave.

So then, what do you think these are telling us?


Matthew 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

Matthew 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.


1Timothy 5:16 If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.

1Timothy 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1Timothy 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.
But this thing I commanded them, Obey my voice... But they hearkened not
Jeremiah 7:22-24

To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.
Proverbs 21:3

Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do you even so unto them,
for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 7:12

Love works no ill to his neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Romans 13:10

[tim_from_pa]

On 7/14/2022 at 12:58 PM, DeighAnn said:

What was wrong with being under the law? Why weren't we just given the Holy Spirit to help us follow the law perfectly?  Besides the rituals (blood sacrifice), temple and priests being all wrapped up in Christ, what else changed?  

 

Whenever I answer the OP and join a thread for the first time, I don't read other replies.  I answer directly.  

Question #1:  Nothing, but it does not deal with sin because it's not the Law that's inadequate, but our nature.

Question #2: Yes we are but with #3's conditions first.

Question #3:  Only the ceremonial law under the Levites has changed, ie. sacrifices, rituals and the like which pointed to Christ hence Moses "wrote of me".  So they were there as a schoolmaster to bring us (up) to (the time of) Christ.  Animal sacrifices did not cleanse from sin other than to fill in until Christ and thus foreshadowed him.

The point:  what we could not do by the flesh with the Law that are the standards of righteousness, Jesus Christ paid the penalty so that we can do righteousness by the Spirit. So the lesson learned is we can't do it, but One stood in and tasted death for every man so that we could by the power of the Spirit. This is why the Holy Spirit was not just given because man has to still die (according to the statement God made in the garden of Eden).  Otherwise, God would have circumvented what He stated. Keep in mind having the Spirit is not just cleaning up one's act and remaining the same creation, but rather having to become a new creation and start all over.

Edited August 12, 2022 by tim_from_pa
spelling

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, tim_from_pa said:

So they were there as a schoolmaster to bring us (up) to (the time of) Christ. 

Wouldn't it be glorious if the churches of today taught same as Paul did, by still using the Old Testament as the schoolmaster to RAISE everyone up unto the KNOWLEDGE and WISDOM of Christ and what that all entails and not as you so clearly pointed out "to bring us (up) to (the time of) Christ"?  

I think there is a severe lack of understanding, and so gratitude, in exactly what  HIS WILLING Sacrifice changed and what it means not only to our lives in this flesh now, but also our LIFE once we leave this flesh behind, knowing before when they 'died' they went to hell (penalty of sin) compared with how we NEVER DIE and have no penalty to pay ourselves.  

Can we, if we  don't understand the temple, along with the meanings of the rituals and the 'furniture' and the priestly duties and what one brought to the temple themselves, and all their individual significances... give proper thanks from the heart for that WORK of Salvation.  

What do you believe that WORK changed for those 'made a new creature' when the death of the flesh body takes place?




 

[Keiw1]

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

So then, what do you think these are telling us?


Matthew 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

Matthew 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.


1Timothy 5:16 If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.

1Timothy 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1Timothy 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

 

I see that Matt 10- was to his apostles who are apart of the little flock( Luke 12:32) they raised the dead and such, but that all stopped when Jesus religion was basically murdered back then along with the followers .

Its always a good choice to help those in need if one has the means to do so. The bible teaches its better to give than receive.