believeinHim Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 440 Topics Per Day: 0.28 Content Count: 3,244 Content Per Day: 2.07 Reputation: 420 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/06/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Alive said: 2. You cannot force a woman to have a baby--that is also a violence. Thank you for saying this. Can we also say that forcing a woman with a Serious Disability, Who really only wants a family with the man she misses, Dearly, In the first place, But realizes She has a Serious Disability, Can we also agree that that would also be a violence. To both a {Potential}, baby, And to the entire familly ? ......................,,,,,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,171 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,570 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted July 17, 2022 1 hour ago, The_Patriot21 said: As a matter of fact I have never, ever suggested criminalizing the women who have an abortion. That wont accomplish anything. The act of abortion should be outlawed and any doctors willing to perform abortions should absolutely be criminalized. But I've never suggested criminalizing the women. And this demonstrates perfectly the double-mindedness of those who believe as you do. On the one hand, you say that abortion is murder. Then on the other hand, you say that the woman should not be charge with murder. As do many of the laws passed in states that criminalize abortion. Let's be honest: if abortion is murder, then the woman who contracts with an abortionist is contracting murder. Would be no different if she contracted with a hit man to take out her husband. Saying otherwise is pure hypocrisy: murder is murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,171 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,570 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted July 17, 2022 5 hours ago, Starise said: Personhood began before you were created. Care to expand on this statement? Scripturally or otherwise? Raises interesting issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 27 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,722 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 8,537 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted July 17, 2022 1 hour ago, one.opinion said: I agree, there is a LOT to consider in that case. Thankfully, those cases are extremely rare. However, it is exactly the topic of discussion, the OP is titled "Is abortion for rape victims allowed?" There is no possible scenario in which a 10 year-old is pregnant without rape. The mother of the 10 year-old in Ohio that was raped and had to go to Indiana for her abortion called the county protective services on her behalf. Of course, her medical well-being was then assessed. So you're right, the girl did not seek the abortion on her own. Regardless, I cannot imagine charging anyone in this case - child, adult, doctor - other than the rapist. Perhaps you simply see things in a much more black and white fashion than I do. You might recall that you are still waiting because you would not answer my question, but insisted on a response from me. That is not good forum behavior - if you want a concern addressed, you should be willing to address previous concerns addressed to you. Here is something I found on pregnancies in people under 20. Early childbirth is especially dangerous for adolescents and their infants. Compared to women between the ages of 20-35, pregnant women under 20 are at a greater risk for death and disease including bleeding during pregnancy, toxemia, hemorrhage, prolonged and difficult labor, severe anemia, and disability. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12264602/#:~:text=Early childbirth is especially dangerous,%2C severe anemia%2C and disability. I don't know what data is available for those not even teens, but I would guess those rates are much higher. Thankfully, these cases are very rare. No one has said that a 10 year old can't have a baby, it is just very risky. You still didn't answer my question. You listed an article stating the dangers of early pregnancy but, not any actual examples. Which that article didn't list either because well, while the health risk is higher, (which I even acknowledged in my reply) it's nothing that can't be mitigated by modern medicine. And yes, in the example you listed the mother absolutely should be charged. And I didn't want to answer your question because not only was it a loaded question, it was a leading question, you trying to make me say something that you can use to trip me up. That is what is not good forum behavior, neither is asking questions I already answered, which I still obliged you with an answer, and still answered your loaded question. Neither of which I'm in the habit of doing because both encourage poor debate skills on the other party. And yes, I'll admit-im addressing it as black and white. Because it's a black and white situation. Murder is wrong. Just because someone else did something bad to you doesn't make it any less wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 27 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,722 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 8,537 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted July 17, 2022 1 hour ago, one.opinion said: I'm glad and very much appreciate she and so many others do. However, that help cannot even come close to covering the overall need. Providing health care for women and children would be very helpful, as would paid family leave - for mothers AND fathers. There are many things that will be more helpful in reducing abortions that the overturn of Roe v Wade. No, there are many things that can be done in ADDITION to overturning roe vs Wade. That's just a good start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 27 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,722 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 8,537 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted July 17, 2022 57 minutes ago, WilliamL said: And this demonstrates perfectly the double-mindedness of those who believe as you do. On the one hand, you say that abortion is murder. Then on the other hand, you say that the woman should not be charge with murder. As do many of the laws passed in states that criminalize abortion. Let's be honest: if abortion is murder, then the woman who contracts with an abortionist is contracting murder. Would be no different if she contracted with a hit man to take out her husband. Saying otherwise is pure hypocrisy: murder is murder. It's not doublemindedness, it's just a statement of reality. A woman goes through with an abortion for many reasons, throwing her in jail for it won't change her mind on the matter, nor will it bring back the life of the child. She probably should go to jail, but it's in reality a waste. Limiting her access to abortion, won't stop her from having one either, at least not by itself. But limiting her access to it while at the same time changing her outlook on it via love and support, and easier access to other options, however will make a huge difference. Did I mention my wife used to volunteer at a local crisis pregnancy center? This center never told women not to have an abortion. Nor would they tell them how to get one. But what they did offer was free pregnancy testing, free std testing, free ultra sounds and counseling, parenting classes, free baby items like cribs diapers, etc as well as information on adoption agencies. They also offered counseling for those who had an abortion. They found out of 100 abortion minded women who came in, 99 ended up carrying the baby to term, with most keeping the baby with only a few going out to adoption. This included many rape victims. It's amazing what will happen if women are actually educated in the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one.opinion Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,240 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 1,356 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2022 33 minutes ago, The_Patriot21 said: You still didn't answer my question. You listed an article stating the dangers of early pregnancy but, not any actual examples. We know there are dangers because there have been examples. This type of information is not freely available. As I’ve said, children this young becoming pregnant is very rare. However, the most recent case has been headline news lately here. 35 minutes ago, The_Patriot21 said: it was a leading question, you trying to make me say something that you can use to trip me up. Not at all, I am very interested in learning what other believe. It gives me something to think about, even if I happen to disagree. 37 minutes ago, The_Patriot21 said: Murder is wrong. You still haven’t supported this claim, nor defined when an abortion might be considered murder. Do you believe prevention of implantation is murder? Is abortion within a week or two of implantation still murder? Is there a particular sign of life that you consider being the line at what is murder and what isn’t? There is a lot of nuance around this issue that makes it difficult for me to see it as black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one.opinion Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,240 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 1,356 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2022 34 minutes ago, The_Patriot21 said: Did I mention my wife used to volunteer at a local crisis pregnancy center? This center never told women not to have an abortion. Nor would they tell them how to get one. But what they did offer was free pregnancy testing, free std testing, free ultra sounds and counseling, parenting classes, free baby items like cribs diapers, etc as well as information on adoption agencies. They also offered counseling for those who had an abortion. This is an excellent service to your community. I wish all communities had access to facilities like these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayin jade Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.87 Content Count: 43,800 Content Per Day: 6.19 Reputation: 11,246 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2022 What Im seeing some say is that in the very rare circumstance of a child being raped and getting pregnant, we should keep abortion legal, even though millions of abortions are performed for the sake of convenience to a woman. Smh 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one.opinion Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,240 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 1,356 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2022 40 minutes ago, ayin jade said: What Im seeing some say is that in the very rare circumstance of a child being raped and getting pregnant, we should keep abortion legal I’ve claimed that there are better ways to reduce abortions than punitive legislation. I’m not suggesting - and no one else has to my knowledge - all abortions should be legal. To fully consider all situations, fruitful conversation (one in which participants can find common ground) should be nuanced. Walking into a conversation, shaking your head and misinterpreting what others have said, is a good way to avoid fruitful conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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