Women in the Ministry

[missmuffet]

What does the Bible say about women pastors?

https://www.gotquestions.org

ANSWER

There is perhaps no more hotly debated issue in the church today than the issue of women serving as pastors. As a result, it is very important to not see this issue as men versus women. There are women who believe women should not serve as pastors and that the Bible places restrictions on the ministry of women, and there are men who believe women can serve as pastors and that there are no restrictions on women in ministry. This is not an issue of chauvinism or discrimination. It is an issue of biblical interpretation.
 

 

The Word of God proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11–12). In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created and the way in which sin entered the world (1 Timothy 2:13–14). God, through the apostle Paul, restricts women from serving in roles of teaching and/or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors over men, which definitely includes preaching to them, teaching them publicly, and exercising spiritual authority over them.

 

There are many objections to this view of women in pastoral ministry. A common one is that Paul restricts women from teaching because in the first century, women were typically uneducated. However, 1 Timothy 2:11–14 nowhere mentions educational status. If education were a qualification for ministry, then the majority of Jesus’ disciples would not have been qualified. A second common objection is that Paul only restricted the women of Ephesus from teaching men (1 Timothy was written to Timothy, the pastor of the church in Ephesus). Ephesus was known for its temple to Artemis, and women were the authorities in that branch of paganism—therefore, the theory goes, Paul was only reacting against the female-led customs of the Ephesian idolaters, and the church needed to be different. However, the book of 1 Timothy nowhere mentions Artemis, nor does Paul mention the standard practice of Artemis worshipers as a reason for the restrictions in 1 Timothy 2:11–12.

 

A third objection is that Paul is only referring to husbands and wives, not men and women in general. The Greek words for “woman” and “man” in 1 Timothy 2 could refer to husbands and wives; however, the basic meaning of the words is broader than that. Further, the same Greek words are used in verses 8–10. Are only husbands to lift up holy hands in prayer without anger and disputing (verse 8)? Are only wives to dress modestly, have good deeds, and worship God (verses 9–10)? Of course not. Verses 8–10 clearly refer to all men and women, not just husbands and wives. There is nothing in the context that would indicate a narrowing to husbands and wives in verses 11–14.

 

Yet another objection to this interpretation of women in pastoral ministry is in relation to women who held positions of leadership in the Bible, specifically Miriam, Deborah, and Huldah in the Old Testament. It is true that these women were chosen by God for special service to Him and that they stand as models of faith, courage, and, yes, leadership. However, the authority of women in the Old Testament is not relevant to the issue of pastors in the church. The New Testament Epistles present a new paradigm for God’s people—the church, the body of Christ—and that paradigm involves an authority structure unique to the church, not for the nation of Israel or any other Old Testament entity.

 

Similar arguments are made using Priscilla and Phoebe in the New Testament. In Acts 18, Priscilla and Aquila are presented as faithful ministers for Christ. Priscilla’s name is mentioned first, perhaps indicating that she was more prominent in ministry than her husband. Did Priscilla and her husband teach the gospel of Jesus Christ to Apollos? Yes, in their home they “explained to him the way of God more adequately” (Acts 18:26). Does the Bible ever say that Priscilla pastored a church or taught publicly or became the spiritual leader of a congregation of saints? No. As far as we know, Priscilla was not involved in ministry activity in contradiction to 1 Timothy 2:11–14.

 

In Romans 16:1, Phoebe is called a “deacon” (or “servant”) in the church and is highly commended by Paul. But, as with Priscilla, there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that Phoebe was a pastor or a teacher of men in the church. “Able to teach” is given as a qualification for elders, but not for deacons (1 Timothy 3:1–13; Titus 1:6–9).

 

The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11–14 makes the reason why women cannot be pastors perfectly clear. Verse 13 begins with “for,” giving the “cause” of Paul’s statement in verses 11–12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because “Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived” (verses 13–14). God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a “helper” for Adam. The order of creation has universal application in the family (Ephesians 5:22–33) and in the church.

 

The fact that Eve was deceived is also given in 1 Timothy 2:14 as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. This does not mean that women are gullible or that they are all more easily deceived than men. If all women are more easily deceived, why would they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? The text simply says that women are not to teach men or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. God has chosen to give men the primary teaching authority in the church.

 

Many women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching, evangelism, and helping/serving. Much of the ministry of the local church depends on women. Women in the church are not restricted from public praying or prophesying (1 Corinthians 11:5), only from having spiritual teaching authority over men. The Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12). Women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22–23), and to proclaim the gospel to the lost (Matthew 28:18–20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15).

 

God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3–5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.

Edited July 16, 2022 by missmuffet

[missmuffet]

45 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Well we all have our convictions. I respect your conscious on this matter, but mine differs towards an egalitarian view of teaching & teachers in the church.  
 

I  look at Joyce Meyer, she has the teaching gift and her husband Dave prefers to plan the events, administrate from behind the scenes, and when he is in spotlight he is shy and doesn’t care for it. 

They to me are modern day Priscilla and Aquila. 

Joyce Meyer is a false teacher. 

[TheBlade]

I don't see why not.. God has never asked me about it. I do believe it has to line up with word.. some out there do not.

 For me the word of God says anyone that says Jesus/Yeshua came in the flesh died on the cross for the worlds sin was buried and rose the 3rd day. Seated at the right hand of the Father and the only way to the Father. They are of God. 
 

Now some doctrine we don't like and does not change touch salvation. Then the problem is us not them. Yes yes I know we tend to think our truth supersedes what they teach.

You know me and my wife today were in the car driving and there are problems that I thought.. lets put our hands together and toss it up to the lord and give it to Him, put it in His hands. Then not a second later the words in the song I didn't know have a clue was playing said "from my hands into yours". That was so so so cool! Praise GOD GLORY TO JESUS! 

[Fidei Defensor]

1 hour ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Joyce has said, she is not a sinner. She has said that anyone who does not believe that Jesus went to Hell cannot be saved. She has said that when Jesus becames sin, He stopped being the Son of God. She has said that Jesus was born again. She had a version of the prosperity gospel, though I think she has repented of that.

Regardless of the topic of the OP, I would say that Mrs. Meyers has been outside of orthodoxy enough to say that she has disqualified herself as a teacher, if her discernment is no better than that. She is not a modern Priscilla, in my opinion.

Can you show me proof Joyce said these things? Video or text she wrote? 
 

I’ve never heard her say such things. 

[Fidei Defensor]

47 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Joyce Meyer is a false teacher. 

Sources please. If you make a claim someone is a false teacher, provide the evidence. 

I will examine the evidence. 
 

 

[Fidei Defensor]

Joyce Meyer’s Ministry Beliefs:

“What We Believe

Statement of Faith

The Bible is the infallible Word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and contains every answer to man's problems.

2 Timothy 3:16,17; 2 Peter 1:20, 21

---

There is one God, existing eternally in three persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. 

John 10:30; John 14:26; Philippians 2:5-7

---

 

God is Love and He loves all people. It is His desire to reach out to those who are poor, oppressed, widowed or orphaned, and to heal the brokenhearted.

Psalm 68:5,6; 1 John 4:16

---

 

Man is created in the image of God but separated from God by sin. Without Jesus we cannot have a relationship with God.

Genesis 1:26; 1 Timothy 2:5

---

 

We can have a personal relationship with God through salvation, God's free gift to man. It is not a result of what we do, but it is only available through God's unearned favor. By admitting we have sinned and believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, and accepting Him as Lord, we can spend eternity with God.

Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 5:1; Romans 3:24

---

 

We believe in water baptism, as taught and demonstrated by Jesus, as the way for believers to identify with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

Matthew 28:19; Romans 6:4; Matthew 3:13-17

---

 

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a gift from God. He helps empower the believer to develop the character of Christ and live every day in God's will.

Matthew 3:11; Acts 2:4

---

 

God gives all believers spiritual gifts. They are for the strengthening of God's people (the Church) and proof of God's existence and power to unbelievers. The gifts of the Spirit are active and relevant today.

1 Corinthians 12:4-11; 1 Peter 4:10

---

 

Sanctification is the ongoing process of allowing God's character to be developed in us.

Romans 6:19; Galatians 5:22-25

---

^^^ I am curious this one. If she means regeneration, I understand, but I believe Jesus sanctified us one for all time. 

 

Divine healing is active in the lives of people today through Jesus, who is the Healer. Healing includes physical, mental, emotional and spiritual restoration. 

Luke 9:11; Matthew 9:35; Acts 10:38; Matthew 10:1

---

The Bible describes hell as a real place. It is a place of suffering and a place of permanent separation from God for those who die without accepting Christ. God's desire is that no one be separated from Him for eternity, which is why He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to earth. 

Hebrews 9:27; Revelation 20:12-15; John 3:16-18

---

 

God instituted marriage between a genetic male and genetic female as the foundation of the family, the basic structure of human society. God commands that no intimate sexual activity be engaged other than in the context of marriage between a man and a woman. 

Genesis 2:24; Mark 10:6-9;  Romans 1:26-29; I Corinthians 6:9;  I Thessalonians 4:1-8;  Hebrews 13:4

---

 

Jesus will return and take all those who have accepted Him as Savior to be with Him for eternity. 

Acts 1:11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; Hebrews 9:28”

Source: 

https://joycemeyer.org/about/what-we-believe

TAG: @Omegaman 3.0 

@missmuffet

[Omegaman 3.0]

15 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Can you show me proof Joyce said these things? Video or text she wrote? 
 

I’ve never heard her say such things. 

I am sure I could, but she is not the topic, and I am not that interested. If you are, I would imagine you could google

joyce meyer I am not a sinner 

ot joyce meyer jesus went to hell

or joyce meyer, Jesus was born again etc.  I'm sure google would find you results

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

sorry to distract, I did not mean to catalyze a topic change, Joyce Meyer is not the topic. 

[Fidei Defensor]

3 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I am sure I could, but she is not the topic, and I am not that interested. If you are, I would imagine you could google

joyce meyer I am not a sinner 

ot joyce meyer jesus went to hell

or joyce meyer, Jesus was born again etc.  I'm sure google would find you results

 

Brother, I say this with concern and care as  a fellow worker in the Kingdom: unless you have a reputable source, making an claim someone is in grave error, and questioning someone’s orthodoxy is harmful to their reputation unless it can be proven without reasonable doubt they said and teach said error by reputable sources. 

It would need even to be the source of the ministry itself (video, book, blog, and etc) where you can point to an official video or text that they said or penned such error to prove their error, not an obscure video on a unknown site like truthaboutjoycemeyer.org, or even Google where a video and text can be bisected, altered, and misinterpreted.
 

If for instance someone said, “Martin Luther is false, he preached..” they would need to show his work  that he wrote error in as proof, not say well on the internet someone said Luther preached. 
 

People must be credible, unless they are proved to be not credible by facts from reputable sources. “Innocent till proven guilty.”

Otherwise we will “bite and devour one another.” (Galatians 5:15). 
 

We are still on topic, I used Joyce Meyer as a source for Women in Ministry.  She is a woman in ministry, and perhaps one of more visible ones like Beth Moore in this debate if women can be teachers. 

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 7/16/2022 at 6:25 PM, Fidei Defensor said:

We are still on topic, I used Joyce Meyer as a source for Women in Ministry.  She is a woman in ministry, and perhaps one of more visible ones like Beth Moore in this debate if women can be teachers. 

Yes, and I thought it was responsible to point out, that Joyce is not a great example to use as a model supporting the legitimacy of women teachers, without expressing a position on that issue myself. My thought is that if you want to make a case for women teachers, find one with a sterling reputation, not one who is criticized as a false teacher. She is not the topic, yet the majority of recent posts in this thread, are now about her. If you want to discuss her, you can always start a thread, like 

"Joyce Meyer, good teacher or not?"

Then you will find out what others think, and probably a lot of examples/sources. That there happens to be so much criticism of her, indicates that she lacks the reputation she should have as a leader.

I am guessing that you could not be bothered to follow my suggestion to google for yourself, instead, you want me to do the work. As I said, I am not interested in the assignment, it is easy for you do check yourself. You said you would examine the evidence, so, examine the evidence, and decide for yourself, but this is not a joyce meyer thread, so I an not going to help you make it one!

On the other hand, if you do examine the evidence, and find that it is not credible, I am willing to examine the evidence that you have for it not being credible, I think that is fair, but that ought to be on a thread about her, not about women in leadership in general, that is my opinion.

Do I have a prejudice? Yes, my wife used to be involved in Joyce Meyer Bible studies through our church. I was looking over the materials, and several times discovered her (Joyce) making assertions that are anti-Biblical, that is my duty as a husband to help my wife not get lead astray.

Edit: OK here:

See if this starts you on the path of examination, has most of what I said, maybe all of it!

Post Script
Above in this post, I suggested that Fidel Defensor consider starting a thread like "Joyce Meyer, good teacher or not?" He subsequently did so. Apperently it did not go in a direction that was agreeable, and he left Worthy.