God's Wrath

[Keras]

On 8/18/2022 at 4:46 AM, JoeCanada said:

God has placed 5 very unique witnesses in the Book of Revelation to testify to the timing  of the  wrath of God, and it begins after the 6th seal...... and before the 1st bowl.

Actually we are told very clearly that the terrible Day of God's wrath happens at the Sixth Seal. Revelation 6:11-17

The 7 Trumpets are punishment for those who follow the 'beast'. 

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 It is just; that the Lord should balance the account by sending judgement to those who afflict you, to give those who love and serve Him relief, when Jesus comes to punish the ungodly, with His mighty host in blazing fire.  They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, but on that great Day His glory will be revealed to all true believers. Isaiah 30:26, Psalm 18:7-15

       This passage of Scripture is not describing the Glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign. It is an event before then –‘ when He comes in blazing fire and reveals His glory among His own’. It does not fit how He destroys the armies that are attacking Jerusalem at His Return, then how the whole world will see Him.

2 Peter 3:7& 10 The Day of the Lord will come unexpectedly. The heavens will disappear with a roar and flaming fire will bring all the earth to judgement. Malachi 4:1

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we deliberately persist in sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remains only the terrifying expectation of a fierce fire which will consume God’s enemies.  Zephaniah 1:14-18

Psalm 110:5-6 The Lord at Your right hand – He crushes kings on the Day of His wrath.  In majesty He judges the nations, causing destruction throughout the world. Ps.97:2

Revelation 14:14-20 On a white cloud, I saw a figure like a man, wearing a gold crown and holding a sharp sickle. Put in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come to harvest the earth. Then the angel that has authority over fire, called to Him -    ‘Swing Your sickle now, for the earth’s grapes are ripe and ready for harvest. So the grapes were gathered and thrown into the great winepress of the Lord’s wrath. The blood flowed from it for 200 miles.  Isaiah 63:1-6, Zephaniah 1:17

 

Jeremiah 51:5-6 Israel and Judah are not left widowed by their God, by the Lord. But their Land is full of guilt, condemned by the Holy One of Israel. Flee out of  Babylon, [Babylon: a metaphor for any godless nation] each person for himself or you will perish for her sins. For now comes the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, He is paying her full recompense.  Ezekiel 22:1-7, Revelation 18:4-8

Isaiah 17:1-10 Damascus will cease to be a city, just a heap of ruins forever desolate. On that Day, Jacobs strength will fade away, as when a reaper gathers the grain or as an olive tree is stripped at harvest and left with just a few berries.  On that Day all will look to their Maker, all idols and the works of their hands are as rubbish. On that Day, your cities will be deserted and abandoned, because you have forgotten the Lord, your strength and protector.         Jeremiah 9:12-13, Isaiah 6:11-12

Isaiah 17:12-14 Listen! It is the thunder of vast forces, like the roaring of mighty waters. Nations flee, driven before the storm like thistledown. At evening, all is terror, by morning all is gone. Such is the fate of those who conspire to attack us.    Psalms 83, Isaiah 66:15-16                        Ref: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.

 

These Bible verses describe the next prophesied event – how God sends His right hand man, Jesus, to ‘ harvest the world of His enemies, those who conspire to attack His people’ This is also the Sixth Seal judgement, reiterated and described in over 100 Bible prophecies. This worldwide judgement of fire accurately fits how the earth would be affected by an unprecedented Coronal Mass Ejection. But as Isaiah and many other prophets say, His righteous Christian  people will be protected.       

Ref: logostelos.info 

[Diaste]

On 8/17/2022 at 10:46 AM, JoeCanada said:

 

2nd witness

The second witnesses are the souls of believers who were martyred for their faith, and what they have to say is very interesting:

"When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”.... Rev 6:9

These martyrs are testifying prior to God's wrath being poured out.

They ask God when He will begin to judge.

If He hasn't begun to judge, He couldn't have begun to pour out His wrath yet either. 

Notice they state that God has not yet begun to avenge their deaths ..... SO...... if the wrath of God was already begun at that point, God would already be avenging their deaths. For this reason the wrath of God cannot have begun prior to the 5th seal.

Therefore, God's wrath begins after the 5th seal, and,  before the 1st bowl.

Agree.

On 8/17/2022 at 10:46 AM, JoeCanada said:

3rd & 4th witness

They are 2 angels. They appear in the sky over the earth prior to something called the 'harvest'.

Jesus tells us what the harvest is.

"Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”....Matthew 13:30

The harvest is when the righteous are gathered into the Lord's barn, then later in verse 39, Jesus tells us the harvest is the end of the age and the reapers are the angels, so this harvest then is the rapture and it must proceed the wrath of God.

I assume you meant 'precede'.

On 8/17/2022 at 10:46 AM, JoeCanada said:

The testimony of the 1st angel...... 

"And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;

and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”.... Rev 14:6-7

Notice the angel says that the hour of His judgment has come. So once God has judged, then and only then is  He ready to pour out His wrath. This angel also speaks the eternal gospel to the whole world. We see this  in Matthew 24:14:

“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."

This angel might be the Archangel of the rapture - this angel flies immediately prior to the rapture. Is this angel proclaiming the gospel to the whole world the same angel of the rapture.... " with the voice of an archangel"....... ?????

May be...

 

On 8/17/2022 at 10:46 AM, JoeCanada said:

2nd angel:

The second angel witness proclaims:

 “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."....Rev 14:9-10

"he WILL BE tormented".... this is future tense. This means that taking the mark of the beast happens PRIOR to the wrath of God.

Also, the wrath of God must take place after this angel speak because it's a conditional statement:

"IF" anyone........ "THEN" they'll be subject to the wrath of God.

I agree.

On 8/17/2022 at 10:46 AM, JoeCanada said:

5th witness:

There is a large group of witnesses, unbelievers,  who testify about the very day that God's wrath begins.

"and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”... Rev 6:16-17

These unbelievers see Jesus coming on the clouds and they ask to be hidden..... and crushed by the rocks.

They testify that the great day of God's wrath has finally come.

It is the very specific day that their wrath begins. This is parallel to the angel in Rev 14 saying it is the hour of judgment that has come. It is that very day and hour, the two things Jesus said in Matthew 24 that we could not know, the day and hour of His return!

True.

On 8/17/2022 at 10:46 AM, JoeCanada said:

Conclusion:

God has placed 5 very unique witnesses in the Book of Revelation to testify to the timing  of the  wrath of God, and it begins after the 6th seal...... and before the 1st bowl.

The Apostle John does not tell us specifically that the trumpets are God's Wrath. But if we put the testimonies of all 5 witnesses together, we can deduce that the trumpets are indeed the beginning of God's Wrath.

This assumes trumps only ever follow the seals and only after all the seals are opened. That cannot be proven from Rev 8:1-2. And even if one could say Rev 8:1-2 is evidence of the succession of trumps after all the seals are opened it's just one bit of evidence and not enough to erase doubt.

Joel tells us all the green grass is burned up at the time of the A of D. That would be the first trump already sounded near the midpoint and  before the Day of the Lord, which is when the Lord's wrath is poured out. 

There is also the Rev 11:18 which states wrath 'has come' at the 7th trumpet. The 7th trumpet is also when the mystery of God is fulfilled. The mystery is not the unknowable, it's something hidden which is now revealed; God Himself, I am convinced. If Jesus arrives at the 6th seal He also arrives at the 7th trump. 

Wrath 'has come' at  both the 6th seal and 7th trump. This is only possible if the two happen in conjunction of if wrath begins twice.

The 6th seal and the 7th trump occur at nearly the same time, 6th seal first, then the 7th trump.

 

[JoeCanada]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Agree.

I assume you meant 'precede'. ( Yes I did... thx)

May be...

 

I agree.

True.

This assumes trumps only ever follow the seals and only after all the seals are opened. That cannot be proven from Rev 8:1-2. And even if one could say Rev 8:1-2 is evidence of the succession of trumps after all the seals are opened it's just one bit of evidence and not enough to erase doubt.

Joel tells us all the green grass is burned up at the time of the A of D. That would be the first trump already sounded near the midpoint and  before the Day of the Lord, which is when the Lord's wrath is poured out. 

There is also the Rev 11:18 which states wrath 'has come' at the 7th trumpet. The 7th trumpet is also when the mystery of God is fulfilled. The mystery is not the unknowable, it's something hidden which is now revealed; God Himself, I am convinced. If Jesus arrives at the 6th seal He also arrives at the 7th trump. 

Wrath 'has come' at  both the 6th seal and 7th trump. This is only possible if the two happen in conjunction of if wrath begins twice.

The 6th seal and the 7th trump occur at nearly the same time, 6th seal first, then the 7th trump.

 

If we study the seals, do we see in any seal where the green grass of the earth is burned up?

In the 6th seal, an angel says...."Do NOT harm the earth or the  sea or the trees UNTIL we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads"

In the trumpet judgments, in the 1st trumpet, what do we see? ....

"Hail and fire mixed with blood, and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up"..... 

AND YET...... "In the 6th seal, an angel says...."Do NOT harm the earth or the  sea or the trees..."..... UNTIL!

In the 2nd trumpet, we have the 1/3 of the sea turned to blood, 1/3 of the living things in the sea perishing, and 1/3 of the ships destroyed.

AND YET...... "In the 6th seal, an angel says...."Do NOT harm the earth or the  sea or the trees..."..... UNTIL!

Jesus tells us that the earth dwellers will be eating and drinking, building and planting, marrying and giving in marriage.....  and the Son of Man will come at an hour they do not expect..... He will come like a thief on those unaware.... Now then, if the trumpets blow at the same time as the seals are opened how can the earth dwellers eat, drink, build, plant, get married etc, with all the devastation going on? How?

The resurrection/rapture happens after the 6th seal is opened, which you say equates with the 7th trump being blown...... Am I correct in this?

Because the angel says in Rev 7 .... "Do  not harm the earth etc..." then according to how you are trying to timeline the trumpets with the seals, that would mean that all the trumpets are blown after the 6th seal is opened and before the seventh seal is opened???? 

??????????????????????????????????????

 

 

[WilliamL]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Joel tells us all the green grass is burned up at the time of the A of D.

Pardon me? Joel says nothing about the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel and Jesus.

[JoeCanada]

On 8/24/2022 at 1:00 PM, Keras said:

Actually we are told very clearly that the terrible Day of God's wrath happens at the Sixth Seal. Revelation 6:11-17

Hi Keras,

Rev 6:12 - I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;

Rev 6:13 - and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.

Rev 6:14 - The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 6:15 - Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 6:16 - and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;

Rev 6:17 - for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?

This is what is spoken of by Joel:

Joel 2:31 - “The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.

So although this comes (the Day of the Lord) at the opening of the 6th seal, the Day of the Lord doesn't actually begin until the 1st trumpet is blown, which many scholars and students of eschatology believe happens on the same day.

The sun dark and the moon blood - the earth dwellers hide in the caves - the resurrection - the rapture - silence in heaven - the first trumpet is blown.-           ALL ON THE SAME DAY!

What are your thoughts on that? I think it lines up scripturally..... 

[Keras]

6 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Joel 2:31 - “The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.

So although this comes (the Day of the Lord) at the opening of the 6th seal, the Day of the Lord doesn't actually begin until the 1st trumpet is blown, which many scholars and students of eschatology believe happens on the same day.

The sun dark and the moon blood - the earth dwellers hide in the caves - the resurrection - the rapture - silence in heaven - the first trumpet is blown.-           ALL ON THE SAME DAY!

What are your thoughts on that? I think it lines up scripturally..... 

When it is realized what it is that the Lord will use to literally fulfil all the vivid descriptions about the terrible Day He will change the world, to a similar extent as He did in the days of Noah, then the correct sequence comes clear.  There will be a 24 hour period between the initial explosion on the suns surface, before the full force of it will strike the earth. 

An Explanation of the Sixth Seal:

Revelation 6:12-17;

I watched as the Lamb broke the Sixth Seal, – At this moment a Coronal Mass Ejection will explode out from the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 3:8, Jeremiah 23:19  Triggered by the attack onto Israel, as per Psalms 83, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 50:1-3, 2 Peter 3:7

 

There was a violent earthquake – The microwave effect of the short wave spectrum penetrates the earth’s crust, triggering worldwide earthquakes by tectonic plate movement.  Haggai 2:6, Deuteronomy 32:22, Isaiah 26:18-20, Amos 8:8-9, Psalms 18:7

 

The sun turned black as a funeral pall – Acts 2:20 The approaching mass of the CME will obscure the sun. Joel 2:31, Amos 5:20

 

The moon became a red as blood – Joel 2:31 The superheated hydrogen plasma strikes the moon and causes a thermoluminescent reaction with the metallic oxides of the moon dust. As well as: the bright red reflection of the initial flash. Isaiah 30:26a

 

The stars in the sky fell like ripe figs – All our satellites crash to earth, this is a known effect of the pressure wave of a CME. Isaiah 34:4, Isaiah 28:2

 

The sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up – Our magnetosphere and atmosphere facing the sun are pushed aside by this multi billion ton pressure wave of superheated hydrogen plasma.  Jeremiah 30:23, Isaiah 34:4, 2 Peter 3:7 & 10, Isaiah 51:6

Every mountain and island moved from their place – Tectonic plate movement caused by the microwave effect. Deuteronomy 32:22, Jeremiah 4:23-24, Habakkuk 3:6, Isaiah 13:13  Also may cause a magnetic pole reversal.

 

Everyone from high to lowly hid themselves – every person on earth will be terrified by what they see is coming and they scramble for cover.  Ezekiel 7:15-19, Zephaniah 1:3 & 11, Luke 21:25-26

 

They called out: Hide us from the wrath of the Lamb – People will dive for cover and most will survive, as they see this disaster approaching. The main mass of a CME will take 24 - 36 hours to arrive on earth. Isaiah 2:19, Isaiah 28:21-22, Jeremiah 25:38, Luke 23:30

 

For the great Day of the Lord has come and who can stand? Deuteronomy 32:22, Ezekiel 7:7, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Joel 1:15.

This is the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, prophesied over 100 times throughout the Bible, it is this terrible event that enables the establishment of a One World Government. But those who took heed of the warnings, Isaiah 26:20-21, took shelter and at the same time called to the Lord for protection, Acts 2:21, 1 Peter 1:5, Psalms 68:1-3, Joel 2:32 & 3:16 and will receive the great blessings the Lord has for His faithful Christian people.

 

[Diaste]

On 8/25/2022 at 10:44 AM, JoeCanada said:

If we study the seals, do we see in any seal where the green grass of the earth is burned up?

In the 6th seal, an angel says...."Do NOT harm the earth or the  sea or the trees UNTIL we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads"

True.

On 8/25/2022 at 10:44 AM, JoeCanada said:

In the trumpet judgments, in the 1st trumpet, what do we see? ....

"Hail and fire mixed with blood, and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up"..... 

True.

On 8/25/2022 at 10:44 AM, JoeCanada said:

AND YET...... "In the 6th seal, an angel says...."Do NOT harm the earth or the  sea or the trees..."..... UNTIL!

In the 2nd trumpet, we have the 1/3 of the sea turned to blood, 1/3 of the living things in the sea perishing, and 1/3 of the ships destroyed.

AND YET...... "In the 6th seal, an angel says...."Do NOT harm the earth or the  sea or the trees..."..... UNTIL!

Both are in fact, true again.

On 8/25/2022 at 10:44 AM, JoeCanada said:

Jesus tells us that the earth dwellers will be eating and drinking, building and planting, marrying and giving in marriage.....  and the Son of Man will come at an hour they do not expect..... He will come like a thief on those unaware.... Now then, if the trumpets blow at the same time as the seals are opened how can the earth dwellers eat, drink, build, plant, get married etc, with all the devastation going on? How?

Generally? The same way all that continues to happen in any war. At the third seal we see real trouble with the food grains. They are expensive and scarce. Some harvest must be happening as the food grains in fact exist. Of course some of that is grains in storage. According to Insider.com the world has 10 weeks of wheat in storage. Losing one world harvest would be devastating.  Even though the 2nd seal unleashed war, removing peace and killing one another, planting and harvest will occur; it must as there is not enough food grain in storage to fulfill the prophecy, imo. 

Let's say the 1st trump blows at the 2nd seal or between the 2nd and 3rd seals. That's one harvest gone early in the week. Planting would happen in the next spring and harvest to follow in the late summer. 

Probably not sowing and reaping at the same levels as before but no doubt people will sow and plant. Neither the seals nor the 1st trump tell us all harvests are gone for all time. What's burned is the food grass at the time, not every harvest thereafter. 

According to CNN: "Last week, Ukraine's grain traders' union said it expected a grain and oilseed harvest of 69.4 million tons, marginally higher than previous forecasts but far below the 106 million tons harvested..."

They are in a war but still harvesting. 

Is this what happens? Idk. It's possible. So in this scenario people still plant, harvest and mill, get married, etc.

On 8/25/2022 at 10:44 AM, JoeCanada said:

The resurrection/rapture happens after the 6th seal is opened, which you say equates with the 7th trump being blown...... Am I correct in this?

Not equates, in conjunction. The 6th seal is the Sign of His coming. The 7th trump is the herald of His arrival and the gathering. Two events occurring apart but near in time at the time of Jesus arrival.

On 8/25/2022 at 10:44 AM, JoeCanada said:

Because the angel says in Rev 7 .... "Do  not harm the earth etc..." then according to how you are trying to timeline the trumpets with the seals, that would mean that all the trumpets are blown after the 6th seal is opened and before the seventh seal is opened???? 

??????????????????????????????????????

Back to the statements of fact at the beginning of your reply; all what you say is true. But while some see the unfolding of Rev 7 arising from the 6th seal I do not. When John records a succession of events he uses language appropriate to consecutive occurrence, e.g.;

Then I watched as the Lamb opened one of the seven seals,

And when the Lamb opened the second seal, 

5And when the Lamb opened the third seal,

7And when the Lamb opened the fourth seal,

And so on. The trumps are the same:

Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, 

8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, 

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, 

12Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet

In these examples there is a clear consecutive order. We have the "When?" of it; one after another, with the action and consequence. 

However there is no such consecutive order from Rev 6:17 to Rev 7:1. There can't be. The people of God aren't going to experience wrath. If Ch. 7 directly follows Ch. 6 then the sealed people of God are going into God's wrath. That's a contradiction of Paul's teaching; "we are not appointed to wrath." So the sealing and the gathering of Ch.7 must have happened before the 6th seal.

Rev 7:1

"After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back its four winds so that no wind would blow on land or sea or on any tree."

All we know here is John is seeing something, not when it happened. We know when John saw it in the vision; after he heard the trumps sound and saw the results, not when the four angels held back the four winds in relation to other events. If it was an event directly after the 6th seal John knew how to articulate that as in Rev 6 and in Rev 8. There simply isn't a "Then..." or a "Next..." here as in the succession of seals and trumps.

In my opinion this sealing comes before the first trump sounds. The people of God are sealed before the trumps so as to protect them from the harm of the trumps; trumps which are more than likely the result of mankind's, or Satan's, doing, not divine intervention. God is allowing the dire calamity of the trumps, He's not meting them out actively. 

Something I have said before, maybe not to you, and where I must remain consistent, is the same idea exists in Rev 8:1-2. It's not a succession there either. John does not use language in Rev 7:1 nor Rev 8:2 to show either of these verses follow what John saw before, in a linear sense. He just 'saw'. 

What is going on in Rev in these critical chapters is a writing style much like any novel; the story is advanced to a point, then the narrative retreats to show circumstances that will exist during the chapter where the story was advanced in a general outline. That's what's happening in Ch. 6 and 7. Chapter 6 is an out line covering the onset of the week up to the Sign Jesus is coming and wrath is beginning, and Ch.7 is  important information about what will occur within that outline in Ch 6. 

Chapter 6 covers all of The Olivet Discourse, cementing the order of occurrence from beginning of the week to Jesus Arrival, which is all before wrath falls and all before the gathering at the last trump, which is the 7th trump.

From Ch. 9 we see this:

"3And out of the smoke, locusts descended on the earth, and they were given power like that of the scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads."

If the trumps were wrath what are sealed people of God doing on earth at the fifth trumpet? If we are not appointed to wrath then believers cannot be in wrath; and if the trumps are wrath then no believer should be here at the 5th trump. Therefore the trumps are not wrath. At least not God's wrath.

In any case a literal chronology of Rev from Ch.1-22 is unwarranted. There are chronological sections but it's not a strict chronology throughout.

[Diaste]

On 8/25/2022 at 11:58 AM, WilliamL said:

Pardon me? Joel says nothing about the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel and Jesus.

Grain and drink offerings have been cut off

from the house of the LORD;

the priests are in mourning,

those who minister before the LORD.

  - Joel 1:9

Come, spend the night in sackcloth,

O ministers of my God,

because the grain and drink offerings

are withheld from the house of your God.

14Consecrate a fast;

proclaim a solemn assembly!

Gather the elders

and all the residents of the land

to the house of the LORD your God,

and cry out to the LORD.

15Alas for the day!

For the Day of the LORD is near,

and it will come

as destruction from the Almighty.b

16Has not the food been cut off

before our very eyes—

joy and gladness

from the house of our God?

 - Joel 1:13-16

Grain and drink offerings ended are exactly what Daniel describes:

" but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering."

"They will abolish the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation."

Joel is even more marked in his telling of the vision as he associates the grain and drink offering cut off from the Temple as being in proximity to the day of the Lord. Just like Jesus does in the Olivet Discourse.

So, the 1st trump has sounded when the A of D takes place or soon after. But certainly the people of God are sealed before the 1st trump sounds sometime around the midpoint but most certainly before.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Diaste

[JoeCanada]

On 8/27/2022 at 4:15 AM, Diaste said:

Let's say the 1st trump blows at the 2nd seal or between the 2nd and 3rd seals. That's one harvest gone early in the week. Planting would happen in the next spring and harvest to follow in the late summer. 

Okay... let's say it does. Let's say the 1st trump blows at the 2nd seal.

What does scripture say happens?

1st trump:.... "1/3 of the earth was burned up..... 1/3 of the trees were burned up......                              and ALL THE GREEN GRASS WAS BURNED UP"

This is all the hay, grass, herbage, provender, growing crops..... 

So.... all the animals would surely die. Many people would surely die.

And where do the farmers get their seed from to plant the next year? From the previous years crop!

On 8/27/2022 at 4:15 AM, Diaste said:

Neither the seals nor the 1st trump tell us all harvests are gone for all time. What's burned is the food grass at the time, not every harvest thereafter. 

Again....  where do the farmers get their seed from to plant the next year? 

And...... that's assuming that there is a 'next year'!

[JoeCanada]

On 8/27/2022 at 4:15 AM, Diaste said:

However there is no such consecutive order from Rev 6:17 to Rev 7:1. There can't be. The people of God aren't going to experience wrath. If Ch. 7 directly follows Ch. 6 then the sealed people of God are going into God's wrath. That's a contradiction of Paul's teaching; "we are not appointed to wrath." So the sealing and the gathering of Ch.7 must have happened before the 6th seal.

This is correct... "The people of God, ie: the redeemed, saints, bondservants, etc,  are not appointed to wrath"

On 8/27/2022 at 4:15 AM, Diaste said:

If Ch. 7 directly follows Ch. 6 then the sealed people of God are going into God's wrath

If by this you mean "God's people, the sons of the twelve tribes of Israel", then you are correct. They will go thru wrath, but they are sealed by God.

 

On 8/27/2022 at 4:15 AM, Diaste said:

So the sealing and the gathering of Ch.7 must have happened before the 6th seal.

 

On 8/27/2022 at 4:15 AM, Diaste said:

So the sealing and the gathering of Ch.7 must have happened before the 6th seal

John tells us that AFTER chapter 6:17..... 

in Chapter 7..."AFTER THIS I saw...." So John writes what he saw AFTER the kings and the rich and strong etc from 6:17  say 'fall on us and hide us from their wrath'

Clearly.... this is succession.

On 8/27/2022 at 4:15 AM, Diaste said:

If it was an event directly after the 6th seal John knew how to articulate that as in Rev 6 and in Rev 8. There simply isn't a "Then..." or a "Next..." here as in the succession of seals and trumps.

"After this"..... "Then"...... "Next"...... 

 

On 8/27/2022 at 4:15 AM, Diaste said:

Something I have said before, maybe not to you, and where I must remain consistent, is the same idea exists in Rev 8:1-2. It's not a succession there either. John does not use language in Rev 7:1 nor Rev 8:2 to show either of these verses follow what John saw before, in a linear sense. He just 'saw'. 

"WHEN" the Lamb broke the 7th seal"..... Clearly, this follows after the Lamb breaks the 6th seal, which follows the 5th seal, which follows the 4th seal...etc.

WHEN the Lamb broke the 7th seal.....And I saw..... John only "SAW" after the Lamb broke the seventh seal. He didn't see what he writes about, before the Lamb broke the 7th seal. He SAW the things AFTER the Lamb broke the 7th seal.

Again.... succession.