God's Wrath

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

This is correct... "The people of God, ie: the redeemed, saints, bondservants, etc,  are not appointed to wrath"

If by this you mean "God's people, the sons of the twelve tribes of Israel", then you are correct. They will go thru wrath, but they are sealed by God.

 

 

John tells us that AFTER chapter 6:17..... 

in Chapter 7..."AFTER THIS I saw...." So John writes what he saw AFTER the kings and the rich and strong etc from 6:17  say 'fall on us and hide us from their wrath'

Clearly.... this is succession.

"After this"..... "Then"...... "Next"...... 

 

"WHEN" the Lamb broke the 7th seal"..... Clearly, this follows after the Lamb breaks the 6th seal, which follows the 5th seal, which follows the 4th seal...etc.

WHEN the Lamb broke the 7th seal.....And I saw..... John only "SAW" after the Lamb broke the seventh seal. He didn't see what he writes about, before the Lamb broke the 7th seal. He SAW the things AFTER the Lamb broke the 7th seal.

Again.... succession.

 

If language was the only evidence it would still be enough for me. There are some facts of prophecy as the catalyst crystallizing the concept:

The last trump will sound.

We are gathered at the last trump.

The sounding of the last trump and the gathering at the last trump occur with Jesus' arrival at the end of the age.

There is only one trump we know of which is the last in a series of trumps associated with Jesus' arrival, the gathering and the end of the age; the 7th trump of Revelation.

We also know Jesus arrival is associated with the 6th seal immediately after the sun and moon go dark, the stars fall and the powers of heaven are shaken. 

From both Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18 we see wrath has come. This wrath isn't ongoing in either reference to 'has come' as neither can be past nor future, both have to be present tense forms of 'elthen'. So God's, and the Lamb's, wrath has just arrived in both references.

So then either Jesus and His wrath arrives twice or, wrath comes once at both the 6th seal and the 7th trump, as shocking as that is to our sense of order. 

The 6th seal is the signs of impending wrath, the day has arrived. The 7th trumpet is the descent of Jesus from heaven and the gathering of the elect, both of which must occur before wrath is physically poured out. 

Given the language and these facts only one conclusion can be reached; The 6th seal and 7th trump occur in some conjunction in time and space and it is not true trumps in their entirety only ever follow the 7th seal.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Okay... let's say it does. Let's say the 1st trump blows at the 2nd seal.

What does scripture say happens?

1st trump:.... "1/3 of the earth was burned up..... 1/3 of the trees were burned up......                              and ALL THE GREEN GRASS WAS BURNED UP"

This is all the hay, grass, herbage, provender, growing crops..... 

So.... all the animals would surely die. Many people would surely die.

And where do the farmers get their seed from to plant the next year? From the previous years crop!

Again....  where do the farmers get their seed from to plant the next year? 

And...... that's assuming that there is a 'next year'!

I'm just saying it's not necessary. There are seed stores as well. This scenario doesn't allow for every field to be planted as year later. I was relating a possible scenario to explain how two could be in the field, one taken, the other left, early in the last week and not only at the very end of the week or just before Jesus arrives, or the moment Jesus arrives.

I grew up on a farm. We had seed stores on site. We typically sold the seed for cash, except what we kept to feed animals. Then in the spring we bought seed. But in the case of oats and wheat we had enough to plant again the next year if we chose to, which we did with oats and wheat. The corn all got sold or fed out.

If the food grains are burned up the stored seed is still safe. It's not going to be sold and the animals are going without oats so fields can be planted again. This is a possible scenario that's more than plausible.

[JoeCanada]

On 8/29/2022 at 2:06 AM, Diaste said:

I'm just saying it's not necessary. There are seed stores as well. This scenario doesn't allow for every field to be planted as year later. I was relating a possible scenario to explain how two could be in the field, one taken, the other left, early in the last week and not only at the very end of the week or just before Jesus arrives, or the moment Jesus arrives.

I grew up on a farm. We had seed stores on site. We typically sold the seed for cash, except what we kept to feed animals. Then in the spring we bought seed. But in the case of oats and wheat we had enough to plant again the next year if we chose to, which we did with oats and wheat. The corn all got sold or fed out.

If the food grains are burned up the stored seed is still safe. It's not going to be sold and the animals are going without oats so fields can be planted again. This is a possible scenario that's more than plausible.

Love your optimism brother.  I surely do.

I can hear the conversation at the dinner table from a farming couple:

" Muriel, should we save seeds for next year, or just drive down to the seed store and buy some....

Oh, I don't know Stan. How many people are dying everyday? We should consider that. We don't want to plant too much...

"Best as I can reckon, about six million, 8oo thousand every day"

The angel of the 6th trumpet...."1/3 of mankind killed by the plagues, fire-smoke-brimstone".....that's about 2.5 billion, or 6.8 million/day

Also.... 1/3 of the fresh waters are bitter, so many people and animals will die from drinking it..... which would make irrigation tough, and the crops that are irrigated with the bitter water (I take this to mean poisonous??) would not germinate or grow, and oh, are there still bees around?.....and the two witnesses withhold rain for 3 1/2 years, making planting virtually impossible.... not to mention 1/3 of the sun will not shine in the day and with many crops needing 8+ hrs of sunlight/day.... and all the ash/soot from the volcanoes filling the air with dust and debris..... and could Stan even get fuel for his farm equipment?

I could go on, but I think you can see the absurdity of it all.

[WilliamL]

On 8/27/2022 at 5:24 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/25/2022 at 11:58 AM, WilliamL said:

Pardon me? Joel says nothing about the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel and Jesus.

 

16Has not the food been cut off

before our very eyes—

joy and gladness

from the house of our God?

 - Joel 1:13-16

Grain and drink offerings ended are exactly what Daniel describes:

" but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering."

"They will abolish the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation."

The issue was the setting up of an abomination of desolation (that is, some kind of idolatrous image, Deut. 7:25-26), which Joel never mentions at all. Because Joel's prophecies do not speak of this particular event and period of the End Times.

[Keras]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The issue was the setting up of an abomination of desolation (that is, some kind of idolatrous image, Deut. 7:25-26), which Joel never mentions at all. Because Joel's prophecies do not speak of this particular event and period of the End Times.

Joel does not prophecy about the Great Tribulation at all, he refers to the terrible Day the Lord will strike the earth with His fiery wrath. The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster by fire from the sun. 

It will be several years later that the leader of the One World Govt will come to Jerusalem, conquer the holy people and desecrate the Temple.  

[JoeCanada]

@Diaste

I'm looking at Rev 14:14-20 where we see the reaping of the earth. The sharp sickle is swung and the righteous are harvested....

Then another angel who also had a sharp sickle swung it over the earth and gathered the unrighteous and threw them into "the winepress of the wrath of God"

So we see the resurrection and rapture of the saints ..... and the judgement of the wicked.

Rev 14:14-20

 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.  And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.”  Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle.  Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe.”  So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God.  And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

In Rev 15, John continues the narrative....

"Then I saw another ..."

So "then" shows what happens 'next' in his vision.

Rev 15:1...

"Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished"

Rev 14 shows what happens at the resurrection/rapture... and the fate of the wicked. The wicked are thrown into the winepress of the wrath of God and the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the winepress....

Then......Rev 15......  the last seven angels who had the seven plagues....which are the last.... because in them the wrath of God is finished...

Now I know we exchanged ideas on this already, but the winepress of God from Rev 14 was not brought up. The narrative shows when the winepress of the wrath of God is trodden, which is before the seven bowls are poured out.

Once again, scripture shows that the wrath of God begins before the bowl judgments.

[Keras]

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

I'm looking at Rev 14:14-20 where we see the reaping of the earth. The sharp sickle is swung and the righteous are harvested....

Then another angel who also had a sharp sickle swung it over the earth and gathered the unrighteous and threw them into "the winepress of the wrath of God"

So we see the resurrection and rapture of the saints ..... and the judgement of the wicked.

Revelation 14:14-20 will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster , the destruction of the Lord's enemies, esp in the Middle East.  Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12

Revelation 15:1 refers to the 7 Bowls, the final punishments of the Great Trib.  The 7 Trumpets come first and the whole GT is over at the end of the final 3 1/2 years, then Jesus Returns and resurrects the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4  

There is no 'rapture to heaven' for anyone.

 

[Diaste]

On 8/31/2022 at 10:59 AM, JoeCanada said:

@Diaste

I'm looking at Rev 14:14-20 where we see the reaping of the earth. The sharp sickle is swung and the righteous are harvested....

Then another angel who also had a sharp sickle swung it over the earth and gathered the unrighteous and threw them into "the winepress of the wrath of God"

So we see the resurrection and rapture of the saints ..... and the judgement of the wicked.

Yes. It looks like that's what's happening in Rev 14:15-20

On 8/31/2022 at 10:59 AM, JoeCanada said:

 

In Rev 15, John continues the narrative....

"Then I saw another ..."

So "then" shows what happens 'next' in his vision.

Rev 15:1...

"Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished"

Here I would say this isn't a timeline element. John says, "Then I saw another great and marvelous sign" It's a sign, not an entrance point into the timeline. And here he also says, "Then I saw another great and marvelous sign". So in addition to a previous sign he saw this sign.

This shows we are seeing visions and sign, not a chronology. This is a chronology:

Then I watched as the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, 

3And when the Lamb opened the second seal, 

5And when the Lamb opened the third seal,

So is this:

And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet,

8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, 

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet,

And this:

“Go, pour out on the earth the seven bowls of God’s wrath.”

2So the first angel went and poured out his bowl

3And the second angel poured out his bowl 

4And the third angel poured out his bowl

 

On 8/31/2022 at 10:59 AM, JoeCanada said:

Rev 14 shows what happens at the resurrection/rapture... and the fate of the wicked. The wicked are thrown into the winepress of the wrath of God and the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the winepress....

Then......Rev 15......  the last seven angels who had the seven plagues....which are the last.... because in them the wrath of God is finished...

Now I know we exchanged ideas on this already, but the winepress of God from Rev 14 was not brought up. The narrative shows when the winepress of the wrath of God is trodden, which is before the seven bowls are poured out.

I would have to say this isn't a timeline. Rev 15 shows why.

On 8/31/2022 at 10:59 AM, JoeCanada said:

Once again, scripture shows that the wrath of God begins before the bowl judgments.

In Rev 15 we see, "2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name. " This is before any bowls are poured out as here the angels are given the bowls only 'then' or after verse 2.

"Then one of the four living creatures gave the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God,"

And then I would never think the people who had gotten the victory over the beast were at the same time subject to the wrath of God; which would have to be the case if wrath began before the bowls.

In Rev 14 we see the harvest and then immediately after that the grapes of wrath. This again shows wrath cannot begin before the bowls as the people of the harvest would have been subject to God's wrath and that cannot be. 

And if God's wrath were happening before the harvest then wouldn't the people of the harvest be absent from God's wrath? How then are they harvested out of God's wrath? And why does the angel say in Rev 14: 

Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”?

This can't be the time of wrath.

 

[Diaste]

On 8/30/2022 at 12:25 PM, WilliamL said:

The issue was the setting up of an abomination of desolation (that is, some kind of idolatrous image, Deut. 7:25-26), which Joel never mentions at all. Because Joel's prophecies do not speak of this particular event and period of the End Times.

If I tell you I own a Buick do I have to tell you it has four wheels and an engine for you to know it has four wheels and an engine?

No. 

Fact is Daniel doesn't mention an idolatrous image either, yet we are told by Jesus to look to Daniel for the understanding of the A of D when we see the thing standing where it ought not.

An idolatrous image erected in a holy place isn't the only element of the A of D; it is the prophetic sign the A of D is upon us but it's not the only thing. If it were then why tell the people to flee? They are told to flee because of what comes with the A of D; subjugation and death. 

We are told to look to Daniel for the understanding. Daniel prophesied of the A of D in 167 BC committed by AE IV. Not only was an icon erected but all temple worship was ended including all ritual and liturgy; and that's not even the half of what took place in Jerusalem and Israel at the time. You can look this up in the Jewish Encyclopedia under Antiochus Epiphanes IV.

The meat and drink offerings were ended in 167 BC. Joel speaks to this very thing when the day of the Lord is near.

Joel is prophesying of the coming A of D.

And this supports the 1st trump blown by the midpoint of the week, at the midpoint, or just after the midpoint, when the 5th seal is open. 

[WilliamL]

On 9/2/2022 at 3:28 AM, Diaste said:

The meat and drink offerings were ended in 167 BC. Joel speaks to this very thing when the day of the Lord is near.

Joel is prophesying of the coming A of D.

And this supports the 1st trump blown by the midpoint of the week, at the midpoint, or just after the midpoint, when the 5th seal is open. 

No, you are putting your presumptions into the prophecies of Joel, who says nothing at all about any abomination of desolation. And then you say "this supports the 1st trump blown by the midpoint of the week," again making a presumption without any supporting scriptural evidence at all.

Because, in fact, there isn't any; just mere speculation on the part of you and others.

The words of Joel 1 clearly tell of events that took place in Joel's time; therefore, the verbs are mostly past tense. Whereas in Joel 2-3, the verbs tell of things yet to come, so this passage is prophetic. And it describes no events at all that even vaguely suggest any abomination of desolation being set up.