Water, Water, Everywhere

[Dennis1209]

The following leads up to a question I am trying to answer. Please be patient as I articulate and document.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Earth is not a global water world, as found in Genesis 1:2 and Noah's flood.

Heaven: 9028 שָׁמַיִם (šā·mǎ·yim): n.masc.; ≡ Str 8064; TWOT 2407a—1. LN 1.5–1.16 heaven, i.e., the realm of God where God abides, similar to the area of the sky, but with a focus of where God abides, sometimes describes as the upper regions above the upper sky (Ps 18:10[EB 9]); 2. LN 1.5–1.16 atmosphere, i.e., the area of the stars, skies, air, as a region above the earth including the horizon (1Ki 18:45); 3. LN 1.5–1.16 unit: שָׁמַיִם שָׁמַיִם (šā·mǎ·yim šā·mǎ·yim) highest heaven, i.e., the very uppermost part of the sky, stars, and air (Dt 10:14); 4. LN 1.5–1.16 unit: בַּיִן הַ־ שָׁמַיִם וְ־ בַּיִן הַ־ אֶרֶץ (bǎ·yin hǎ- šā·mǎ·yim w- bǎ·yin hǎ- ʾě·rěṣ) midair, formally, between the heavens and between the earth, i.e., an area of space just above the earth which has no base or support to set the feet (2Sa 18:9)

Swanson, J. (1997). In Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament) (electronic ed.). Logos Research Systems, Inc.

In Genesis 1:2, water is already present. In Genesis 1:6, the second day, God made the firmament (an expanse, an atmosphere, a place to put something in) to divide the existing water. The firmament is not water.

There is an interesting omission: In the six-day creation account, day TWO (the firmament) is the only day of six. God did not say, “it was good.”  But I'm getting side tracked. 

The Lord lists everything made and created in order (heaven, sun, moon, stars, herb, cattle, fowl, fish, man, etc.). The element that sustains all life, water, is not said when it was made or created (fashioned or ex nihilo).

I am trying to answer the question: What day of the creation week was “water” created?

This leads to another interesting question I’ve pondered.

Genesis 1:28 (KJV) And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Subdue: 3533. כָּבַשׁ kâbash, kaw-bash´; a prim. root; to tread down; hence neg. to disregard; pos. to conquer, subjugate, violate:—bring into bondage, force, keep under, subdue, bring into subjection.

Strong, J. (2009). In A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 2, p. 54). Logos Bible Software.

My thinking was the Garden of Eden was in near perfect condition. Adam & Eve’s job was to keep or maintain the garden. The plant, animal, and human creation lived in complete harmony inside the Garden of Eden. The garden itself, the way I understand it, would be a tiny section of the geographical Eden itself. Were there things outside of Eden and the rest of the world in need of subjugation? 

The earth had not yet been cursed (thorns, thistles, blood sucking insects, animal fear of man and carnivores, etc.)

What was there to conquer, subjugate, and bring under control?

[JohnR7]

45 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

My thinking was the Garden of Eden was in near perfect condition. Adam & Eve’s job was to keep or maintain the garden. The plant, animal, and human creation lived in complete harmony inside the Garden of Eden. The garden itself, the way I understand it, would be a tiny section of the geographical Eden itself. Were there things outside of Eden and the rest of the world in need of subjugation? 

The Garden of Eden is now under the Persian Gulf. All the plants and animals that were in Eden - Noah saved on the ARK. Our Biology book calls this a bio diverse eco system. Science also use the word Eden - Adam - Eve as we read about in Time magazine. What makes Eden unique from the world is these were domesticated plants and animals. By definition they need man and would have to go back to a wild state to survive without man. For example man collects seeds and plants them. Nature uses the wind or animals to scatter the seeds and plant them. Science tells us that civilization spread from the middle east to Europe. So the civilized world that we live in would not exist if Noah had not saved it on his Ark. The world would still be uncivilized and mankind would still be hunter gathers. 

There was a world wide flood at the time of Pangea. That is an archtype or a paradigm of Noah's flood. The Bible is literal, so a child can understand. Then when we become an adult we understand the symbols and what they mean. The letters in the alphabet are actually symbols and have meaning. But our modern education system does not teach this and that is why public education is so meaningless.  

I could easily write at least one book about all of this. Because I have researched and studied Genesis 1 so much. 

[JohnR7]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

I am trying to answer the question: What day of the creation week was “water” created?

Chemistry is pretty difficult. 

The Letter Mem (M) (Mayim) represents water. We read: "And God said" - We are told God used the Hebrew language when He created because the Bible says: "God said". 

H2O - Hydrogen was a product of the big bang. Both Oxygen and Hydrogen is a gas. Water can be a solid, liquid or gas. Right now Science believes that water came to the earth on astroids. At first the sun was very hot and water would have been evaporated. And blown away by solar wind. So water was formed on the second day. because we need the atmosphere to contain that water. 

[DPMartin]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

 

I am trying to answer the question: What day of the creation week was “water” created?

This leads to another interesting question I’ve pondered.

 

What was there to conquer, subjugate, and bring under control?

Lets look at the first verse:

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 

In the beginning (time) God (something that started it) created (energy) the Heaven ( space) and the earth (matter)

Though it may not be that important in the scheme of things, but it shows all the elements of creation and the required “something that started it”. Also, God did not become present in His creation until the second verse, it must be understood that God inhabits eternity therefore always was before creation was started. so, a ball of water could have been by the time God’s Presence His Spirit was over the waters. The waters are the chosen place for life to be within His creation. Creation is made for the accommodation for the presence of life.

 

On question two

You live under a roof was not the materials forced to conform to the will of the builder? When you eat meat or vegetables from a store isn’t the earth and water and living things controlled by man as best he can to? When men were coming to America, they cut clearings and killed off hostile animals to stay where they pleased. Mankind, now travels and trades at will, builds dams so on and so forth. What part of that don’t you see as subduing the earth.

 

Also it is rarely noted that God made the man and then put the man in the garden. Also the man was in the garden already when God made Eve. So all of that was also a part of the sixth day. Its very posable that the man was made and placed in the garden and then kicked out of the garden all on the sixth day. therfore being told on the sixth day to subdue the earth after they had their experiance in the garden.

 

also good observation on God not see that it is good, i think its because it wasn't to His satisfaction yet, there is the possibility of that because who is to be with Him in heaven hasn't been fulfilled at that time. another thing about what God saw in the creation text, when you read the OED definition of the English word "saw" according to the brits when the KJV was translated it meant either a saw blade or to declare. so from the translator's view it would mean God declared it good. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by DPMartin

[Not me]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

What was there to conquer, subjugate, and bring under control?

Hello, and knowing the truth; that for every question, there is an answer, may you be blessed in your searching into such answers….

If I might offer a pondering which may or may not be of help…

I hold true that this creation is a creation out of both the darkness and the light God added to it… Therefore, as I hold true, darkness being synonymous with evil and light being synonymous with good, the bringing under was to the manifesting of only the good this creation was created out of, putting under all the evil, for man was given dominion and could bring forth that which he would…

My ponderings, may you be blessed in yours…

In the searching into Him, Not me 

[Not me]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

I am trying to answer the question: What day of the creation week was “water” created?

Hello again, if I might put forth another thought, I hold true this water, was, and is, the same ‘glassy sea’ spoken of in Revelations, that being, in a figure that substance capable of shining forth the glory of God… For no other substance will there be in Heaven but that substance that is capable of shining forth His glory….

Once again, be blessed in your ponderings before God, Not me 

[Dennis1209]

8 hours ago, DPMartin said:

Lets look at the first verse:

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 

In the beginning (time) God (something that started it) created (energy) the Heaven ( space) and the earth (matter)

Though it may not be that important in the scheme of things, but it shows all the elements of creation and the required “something that started it”. Also, God did not become present in His creation until the second verse, it must be understood that God inhabits eternity therefore always was before creation was started. so, a ball of water could have been by the time God’s Presence His Spirit was over the waters. The waters are the chosen place for life to be within His creation. Creation is made for the accommodation for the presence of life.

 

On question two

You live under a roof was not the materials forced to conform to the will of the builder? When you eat meat or vegetables from a store isn’t the earth and water and living things controlled by man as best he can to? When men were coming to America, they cut clearings and killed off hostile animals to stay where they pleased. Mankind, now travels and trades at will, builds dams so on and so forth. What part of that don’t you see as subduing the earth.

 

Also it is rarely noted that God made the man and then put the man in the garden. Also the man was in the garden already when God made Eve. So all of that was also a part of the sixth day. Its very posable that the man was made and placed in the garden and then kicked out of the garden all on the sixth day. therfore being told on the sixth day to subdue the earth after they had their experiance in the garden.

 

also good observation on God not see that it is good, i think its because it wasn't to His satisfaction yet, there is the possibility of that because who is to be with Him in heaven hasn't been fulfilled at that time. another thing about what God saw in the creation text, when you read the OED definition of the English word "saw" according to the brits when the KJV was translated it meant either a saw blade or to declare. so from the translator's view it would mean God declared it good. 

Thus far, no one has given me a “day” (one through six) of the six-day creation account water was created. In the grand scheme of things, this may seem insignificant and moot unless there’s an interest in eisegesis, world history, geology, and omitting some things.

I take the six-day account as entirely literal, lacking metaphors, similes, or symbology.

There seems to be a disconnect between Genesis 1:1-2 and the first day of creation. The beginning (Gen 1:1) could not be a day, with the first day starting in Gen. 1:3 and ending in Gen. 1:5.

I agree that time, space, energy, and matter were created in the beginning, but I don’t see it in any of the six days of creation. With my understanding of the physics of the universe, something must be made, a place available to put something into, and time is needed to do that. It all had to occur at the exact moment as my thinking goes.

About the alternate question, I should have kept it out to focus on my primary question. But since I did:

 Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. Genesis 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

Adam’s first and primary job seems to be described above, till, and tend the garden. Perhaps Adam & Eve managed and nurtured some of the same foods the (we would say domesticated) animals ate. As I implied, the lion and lamb lay down together, and there were no carnivores. That appears to be the case for the Garden of Eden proper within its borders. A mist watered the earth, and the environment must have been perfect.

This mist may have been the product of a waterfall(s) from one or more rivers, IMO.

As was suggested, there would be no need for housing, getting out of the weather, dams, clothing, etc.

The small Garden of Eden inside Eden had borders (rivers) separating it from Eden proper and the rest of the world. What was inside the Garden of Eden that needed to be subdued? Evidently, outside of the confines of the Garden, things were different that required man to subdue it.

I’m thinking, with be fruitful and multiply, the children of Adam & Eve would eventually have to migrate and leave Eden because of crowding and all that entails. What was outside of the Garden required them to subdue, take charge and control, overcome, etc.

Understanding what was before better helps me to understand what is to come. Without debating the one-thousand-year (millennium) reign of Christ, many of the same conditions that once were will be restored. 

Isaiah 65:25 (KJV) The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

This refers to the millennial reign of Christ I do believe. Again, here it appears to be isolated to one geographical location, God's holy mountain. What about outside of God's holy mountain? 

The earth will once again be refurbished, this time by fervent heat and restored. There will be no more seas, unless this is a metaphor for chaos and the abyss. If literal, there were most likely no seas or oceans before the great deluge of Noah's day. 

[missmuffet]

5 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Thus far, no one has given me a “day” (one through six) of the six-day creation account water was created. In the grand scheme of things, this may seem insignificant and moot unless there’s an interest in eisegesis, world history, geology, and omitting some things.

I take the six-day account as entirely literal, lacking metaphors, similes, or symbology.

There seems to be a disconnect between Genesis 1:1-2 and the first day of creation. The beginning (Gen 1:1) could not be a day, with the first day starting in Gen. 1:3 and ending in Gen. 1:5.

I agree that time, space, energy, and matter were created in the beginning, but I don’t see it in any of the six days of creation. With my understanding of the physics of the universe, something must be made, a place available to put something into, and time is needed to do that. It all had to occur at the exact moment as my thinking goes.

About the alternate question, I should have kept it out to focus on my primary question. But since I did:

 Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. Genesis 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

Adam’s first and primary job seems to be described above, till, and tend the garden. Perhaps Adam & Eve managed and nurtured some of the same foods the (we would say domesticated) animals ate. As I implied, the lion and lamb lay down together, and there were no carnivores. That appears to be the case for the Garden of Eden proper within its borders. A mist watered the earth, and the environment must have been perfect.

This mist may have been the product of a waterfall(s) from one or more rivers, IMO.

As was suggested, there would be no need for housing, getting out of the weather, dams, clothing, etc.

The small Garden of Eden inside Eden had borders (rivers) separating it from Eden proper and the rest of the world. What was inside the Garden of Eden that needed to be subdued? Evidently, outside of the confines of the Garden, things were different that required man to subdue it.

I’m thinking, with be fruitful and multiply, the children of Adam & Eve would eventually have to migrate and leave Eden because of crowding and all that entails. What was outside of the Garden required them to subdue, take charge and control, overcome, etc.

Understanding what was before better helps me to understand what is to come. Without debating the one-thousand-year (millennium) reign of Christ, many of the same conditions that once were will be restored. 

Isaiah 65:25 (KJV) The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

This refers to the millennial reign of Christ I do believe. Again, here it appears to be isolated to one geographical location, God's holy mountain. What about outside of God's holy mountain? 

There are some things the Bible does not tell us. We know that God created it because who else would have created it? We know that we have water. 

[Dennis1209]

3 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

There are some things the Bible does not tell us. We know that God created it because who else would have created it? We know that we have water. 

Yes, I agree, there are many things the Bible does not tell us. 

Proverbs 25:2 (KJV) It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

The Lord goes into great detail listing everything He made and when, with the exception of water. The Lord created every living thing on earth to require water, without water there is nothing that can live. Our Bible is emphatic about our need for living water. On example: Revelation 7:17 (KJV) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

I find it interesting that the key element for all physical being and survival as created is not listed. I am only searching it out and trying to obtain suggestions I never thought of or considered. 

[missmuffet]

19 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Yes, I agree, there are many things the Bible does not tell us. 

Proverbs 25:2 (KJV) It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

The Lord goes into great detail listing everything He made and when, with the exception of water. The Lord created every living thing on earth to require water, without water there is nothing that can live. Our Bible is emphatic about our need for living water. On example: Revelation 7:17 (KJV) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

I find it interesting that the key element for all physical being and survival as created is not listed. I am only searching it out and trying to obtain suggestions I never thought of or considered. 

If God wanted it to be listed He would have made sure it would have been listed.