Faith and Works

[RGR]

right, them tea drinkers will call you mean spirited.

we are waiters in a restaruant, not soldiers in a war.

and people keep asking....

wonder what the great falling away will be like?

at least we know how easy it will be for the enemy to gain ground.

drink up, tea drinkers, in the name of "love"----

meanwhile your sons and daughters will be left behind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually Green tea and Black Tea are very healthy drinks. I try to have a cup every morning. Put a little lemon with it, and I like it better than coffee. So you go ahead and smack everyone in the head with a 2x4 because God told you it is ok and I'll take God and a cup of Tea. Lets see, Tea...Hot and invigorating, or ....Cold and refreshing. A 2x4 painful, a weapon, asserts the power of the wielder over the receiver. The 2x4 approach is fine as long as it is God wielding the 2x4 and not "you" wielding it through your own pride.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

New Englanders always throw tea into the Harbor.

too much burden---you see.

drink up, and dont be concerned about someone elses pride, when you dont have any.

the 2 x 4 doesnt belong to me, I only use a sword.

perhaps, its a plank in your eye reflecting back, you see.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well if it's a plank in my eye, I trust that God will show it to me and then I'll remove it!

[Kansasdad]

right, them tea drinkers will call you mean spirited.

we are waiters in a restaruant, not soldiers in a war.

and people keep asking....

wonder what the great falling away will be like?

at least we know how easy it will be for the enemy to gain ground.

drink up, tea drinkers, in the name of "love"----

meanwhile your sons and daughters will be left behind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually Green tea and Black Tea are very healthy drinks. I try to have a cup every morning. Put a little lemon with it, and I like it better than coffee. So you go ahead and smack everyone in the head with a 2x4 because God told you it is ok and I'll take God and a cup of Tea. Lets see, Tea...Hot and invigorating, or ....Cold and refreshing. A 2x4 painful, a weapon, asserts the power of the wielder over the receiver. The 2x4 approach is fine as long as it is God wielding the 2x4 and not "you" wielding it through your own pride.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

New Englanders always throw tea into the Harbor.

too much burden---you see. I have never been to New England, would love to in the fall though

drink up, and don't be concerned about someone elses pride, when you don't have any.

God said the humble will inherit the kingdom of God, but I, like all men, struggle with pride, how about you? Do you ever struggle with pride?

the 2 x 4 doesn't belong to me, I only use a sword. Yes I know and there in lies the problem.

perhaps, its a plank in your eye reflecting back, you see.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Without question I have planks in my eyes, and God will help me work on them. How about you, do you have any planks in your eyes?

What did God mean when he said the Humble will inherit the kingdom of God?

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

[EricH]

It is probably safe to assume that we all have planks of one kind or another in our eyes. The issue we all face is to make sure our relationship with God is good. That has to be our first priority. Once our relationship with God is good, and we begin to work on those planks (By His power), we than are enabled to minister effectively to others. This ministry to others includes helping them when they stumble (help them see and remove their own planks with God's help).

The goal should always be serving the person you are trying to help. If we simply take joy in proving some one else wrong, or we try and take on the role of the Holy Spirity, that is not serving them. It is serving our own egos.

So, the goal should be for us to be the "real deal" so we can serve others and help them become the "real deal"

Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Philippians 2:3-8 NASB

[Iryssa]

Great posts, Mark!

But leaven is yeast...not sin *grin*

Eric, a big AMEN to your post

[ruah brit]

Greetings in Jesus!

I have chosen to start a discussion about the relationship between faith and works.

For my part, as a Christian believer, I see the relationship between faith and works as being an important subject which is referred to in many passages of the New Testament.

Yet remarkably, for my part at least, I find that there is little teaching given on the relationship between faith and works in most Christian circles today.

As a result, I believe that a good many Christians are left in confusion or partial bondage, and to be in a kind of twlight being in some place half way between law and grace.

Also I believe that not a few Christians, through ignorance on this point, are led astray into false teachings which lay unscriptural emphasis on the observance of some particular day or eating of certain special foods or other similar matters of law.

As a Christian believer what does by "faith" or by "works" mean to you?

For my part, based on my understanding by "faith" to means "that which we believe," and by "works" means "that which we do."

Therefore I believe that we can express the relationship between faith and works as taught in the New Testament by the following contrast: Faith is not based on works, but works are the outcome of faith. Or, in still simpler words: What we believe is not based on what we do, but what we believe.

What does the relationship between faith and works as taught in the New Testament mean to you as a Christian believer?

This is the faith that the bible is referring to.

Mt 14

31 And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?"

Mt 21

21 So Jesus answered and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' it will be done.

These are the works that the bible is referring to.

Joh 5

36 But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish--the very works that I do--bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.

Joh 14

12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

Denise

[Remnant]

a good example of faith and works is Peter walking on the water. Christ(God, Word) told him to come. The minute Peter OBEYED THE LORD, he walked on water. When did Peter begin to sink...WHEN HE TOOK HIS EYES OF THE WORD...He lacked faith. But Peter showed us what a Christian can do with his faith and works..WALK on Water!!

[Guest shiloh357]

The reason why so many people have a hard time keeping these words together is because people want to leave out the "works" part. Even though there are some who believe that works prove our faith they don't believe that works save us.

In the New Testament we find where it is mentioned, "not of works, lest any man should boast", is speaking of works of the Old Law.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are still called unto good works under the new law. Our works under the new law is our repentance from the works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,)

Even though we were saved through grace we need to keep our salvation by ridding our lives of these sins. Christ said, "Go, and sin no more". To do so is a work.

You are wrong, Im afraid. Good works, or evil works? How do you define them apart from the Torah/Law? There is not one good deed you find in the New Testament that is not already found in the Torah. The Torah is the theological seed bed for all of what God reveals to man down through the ages that follow. People try to draw a false dichotomy between the Old and New Testaments and in doing so, it clouds their understanding. The "Old" and "New" of both testaments or covenants pertains to the means of atonement. We have a superior Sacrifice, superior blood, and a superior High Priest. We have a new and living way to God thruogh Christ that makes the blood of animals and the Aaronic priesthood obsolete.

There is no such things as "new" and "old" works. When Paul wrote Eph 2:8-10, it was the moral code contained in the Torah that was on his mind. If Paul had been asked to define right and wrong, the only Scriptural authority he would have to point to, would have been the Old Testament.

So, to claim that we are not saved by works of the law, but are saved by "new" works is just not true. The New Testament expounds and expands the moral code God set in place in the Old Testament, it does not replace that moral code with another one.

When I say that works don't save me that is the same as saying that putting off the old man that is filled with sin won't save me.

No it won't save you, because the commandment to put off the old man was given to people who were already saved. It was not given to tell us how to get saved. You need to read your Bible.

Faith without works is dead!! If I say that I believe in God and Christ yet still live in sin and never change my inner man I will not get to heaven.

There is your problem. You can't change your innerman. If you think it is up to you to change your inner man, then you are definitely not saved. Saved people are those who have had their inner man (spirit) changed by faith in Christ alone.

We work out our salvation in fear and trembling by putting away all of the sin in our lives. I stop smoking, lying, cheating, fornicating, hating, being mean, etc.

But what you are advocating is not working "out" your salvation, but working "for" your salvation. To work "out" our salvation means to put it on display. We are live out the salvation we have already received. Not sinnning and doing works of righteousness are supposed to be the indicators of salvation, not the means of procuring it.

When people say that works aren't a part of our salvation they are really saying that I can stay the same sinful person I was before I got saved and still make it to heaven. If that is so then we might as well white out the word "repentance" from our bible pages. Our works is our repenting from our sins.

Pure nonsense. No one is saying that we should not have good works or that works are not important. No one is claiming that we can live in sin and still make it to heaven. If a person has NO desire to serve God, they were never saved to start with. They were never born again, and were never new creations in Christ.

My works has a larger part of my Christianity than people want to believe.

un huh... "your Christianity." There is YOUR Christianity and then there is the New Testament faith, biblical Christianity. You should give up your Christianity and try Christ instead.

Romans 12:1, 2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

This verse is the definition of what New Testament works are. Transforming my mind is the working out my salvation. This is a part of my salvation and cannot obtain heaven without it.

More nonsense... Again, this is commanded to people who are already saved. It is not telling any how to get saved. It is telling us what our service to the Lord as Kingdom of priests entails. This is not to get saved, but rather how to conduct ourselves as members of the redeemed community.

Remember, the law was given to a people who were already saved. God did not go to the Israelites and demand they keep His lawin order to be saved from Egypt. He saved them first, and THEN gave them his commandments. He did not say," if you keep my laws you will be saved."

[MrSealedEternal]

Dear Cardcaptor,

If you're trying to work out your own salvation, you're denying that Christ already worked it out for you.

1 Peter 2:24 "... and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds we were healed."

Hebrews 10:10 "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE for ALL."

Romans 4:5 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness."

Romans 5:1, 9 "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

Jesus Christ, who is God, died to pay your sin debt 2000 years ago, once for all. He wants you to trust Him to save you, but you are trying to save yourself. If we try to save ourselves by being good, we are rejecting God

Edited December 21, 2005 by Mr*MrsSealedEternal

[MrSealedEternal]

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been SAVED through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of GOD; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Galatians 2:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM." Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one {point,} he has become guilty of all.

Galatians 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh,

You really need to go study your bible. What you really need to do is define the word "works". If Christ created me unto good works then what are those works that I am supposed to do? Remember, I will be judged by those works so I need to get them right.

Two things here:

1. You are the one who needs to define good works and evil/sinful works by finding any good or sinful works listed in the New Testament that are not contained anywhere in the Old Testament. The New Testament is an extension, an augmentation of the Old Testament, not the replacement of it, at least where God's moral code is concerned.

2. Judged by works - You are no doubt referring to the following verse: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:10) This judgement is for believers only, not for unbelievers. This is not the great white throne judgement at the end of days. This judgement is not determining who is saved but rather the extent of reward given to the saved. The "Judgement Seat of Christ" is for Christians only. Only sinners will be at the great and final day of judgement. Again, you are judged according to works to determine your reward, not to determine your salvation.

Under the Old Law the works were physical in the sacrifices and ordinances they had to do. Under the New Law Christ said it will be written in our hearts and not on tables of stone like the 10 commandments. All the works that the Jews did had nothing to do with the bring of Christ. They were boasting of this saysin if it wasn't for them that Christ would not have come. Christ's coming was planned from before the beginning of the creation.

Pure nonsense... The Sacrifices are not the "works" Paul is talking about when he says we are not saved by works. Paul is saying that we are not saved by ANYTHING we do. You do not have support from the Greek or the context of Ephesians to limit Paul's reference to works as referring ONLY to the Sacrificial system. Paul is saying that there are NO good works, works of charity, of self abasement, of self-denial, of ANY religious nature that play a part in how you get saved. Works of any kind, are in NO way the vehicle through which we procure or maintain God's favor. God's favor, his salvation is given freely to those who put their faith in Christ alone. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23) Salvation is a gift given freely by God by His grace to whomever trusts Jesus for salvation. Because it is a gift, that means that it is IMPOSSIBLE for works to save us. If we are saved by works, then that would mean salvation is not a gift, and that would make God a liar.

here is your problem. You can't change your innerman. If you think it is up to you to change your inner man, then you are definitely not saved. Saved people are those who have had their inner man (spirit) changed by faith in Christ alone."

Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

The new man is renewed in knowledge. I use the knowledge of God, which is the bible, and learn what sin is so that I can stop those sins. I do this with the aid of the Holy Spirit and Christ. So that means that I have to do the work in stopping whatever sins that I am committing. This is called "works" under the New Law.

Putting on the new man, and changing your inner man are not the same thing. YOU are not the one that affects the change in your heart, Jesus does. Jesus is the one that recreates and regenerates you. So, putting on the "new man" must be understood differently than the way you are using it. Here are couple of parallel passages: But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof. (Romans 13:14)

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Ephesians 4:24) We see that we are to put on Christ each day as a garment if you will. In other words we are to put on His attributes, his character in order that we may put Him on exhibit to the world. Only when we do this, will people see beyond us and see the Christ that lives in us. Putting on the new man is simply a way of saying that we need to daily seek to live like Christ, that we need to live up to the principles of grace He is implanted in us that we may truly be seen as having been recreated in the image of Christ Jesus. This has nothing to do with being saved, but as to how we put our salvation, and our Savior on display for the world to see!!

2 Corinthians 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day.

Each day that I study I learn more of God's word and what is required of me. As I learn what I must do and what I must not do I comply. As I learn that I need to be more patient, longsuffering, kind, loving, etc. I become more "Christ Like". My inner man changes each day as I learn to quit hating and start more loving. These are the works we were called to do and without them we shall not see the Kingdom of Heaven.

No, your inner man is renewed each day, it does not "change" each day. Those words do not mean the same thing. You need to read that verse a little closer. Paul is talking about His "inner man" gets stronger each day. He contrasts it to his outer man. Though Paul was taking a lot of abuse for the gospel and it was no doubt taking its toll on his body, spiritually Paul said that despite these afflictions he was being renewed, heartened, encouraged, strengthened, edified etc. inwardly. Paul went on to say that his present affliction was light compared to the eternal weight of glory it was working in his life. You are essentially ripping this verse from its context to make a point that Paul was not trying to make.

Shiloh, you need to undertand that after I get saved that I need to continue living as a Christian by putting off the old man. As I change my heart to quit womanizing, drinking, swearing, stealing, lying, etc. I am changing my inner man. If I don't put away these things then I never repented of my sins and I will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

No, you are not changing your inner man. IF you are saved, your inner man has already been changed. It has been recreated into the image of Christ, and you cannot change it to make it better than that. We do these things NOT to change our inner man, but to force our outer man, our flesh, our mind, to come into line with the Word of God. It is the inner man affecting change on the outer man. THAT is why we abandon the ways of the world.

If I were to accept Jesus in my heart as my Lord and Personal Savior and am now saved but never stop doing the sins written in the above verses I will NOT inherit the kingdom of Heaven.

If you still have the insatiable desire to do those horrible sins, then you would not want to accept Jesus in the first place. We only accept Jesus when we have been convicted of our sin and obey the gospel and forsake them. This is done when the Holy Spirit leads a person to do so.

If you have accepted Jesus into your heart, you SHOULD have new desires, new "want-tos." If you don't, then you need to look at the authenticity of your salvation experience and ascertain if you really did make a commitment to Christ.

So, if I live in any of these sins I have to repent of them or I won't make it to heaven. As I clean up my life and free my self of these sins so that I can go to heaven I actually committed a "WORK".

Here is the problem. YOU are cleaning up YOUR life. YOU are freeing YOURSELF. If YOU can clean up your life, if YOU can free YOURSELF from sin, then you don't need Jesus. You become your own Messiah, and thus you are trusting in your goodness to earn you a place in heaven. You are not trusting in Jesus. Jesus is not good enough for you. He is not your God, He is not your Savior.

Your position is problematic because it robs God of His glory. God wants us to boast in Him, not in our own goodness. The main focus is your posts has been on YOU. YOU don't talk about Jesus saving you, you are talking about YOU being good enough, you cleaning up your life, you setting yourself free of sin. All of the things that ONLY God can do, YOU are trying to do, and such you will not go to heaven and you will not see Jesus. You are trusting in yourself, and as such are sliding on greased pole straight into hell.

Let me tell you something. There are people right now on this board who are going to hell, not because they are a drunkard, or a fornicator, but because they never were. There are people who even now are strutting into hell. They are depending on their goodness and their righteousness to save them, and they are going to be very disappointed. Grace is not a reward for the wicked, it is a gift for the guilty. Grace is not for those who do it just right. Grace is for those who say "God have mercy upon me a sinner!" Grace is for those who cannot get saved on their own.

This is not hard to understand and I find that those who usually bulk against it are those who still have a lot of sin in their lives and are resting entirely on faith to save them. This is why "Faith without works is DEAD".

You are also misunderstanding what I am saying. AFTER we are saved we need to CONTINUE in the Gospel by living it. If after I am saved I don't live by it then I will lose my salvation.

NO, those of us who resist what you are saying, do so because rest entirely on Christ (not faith) Our faith is not in faith, but in Christ. It is Christ who is the author and finisher of our faith. Our faith is in Him and Him alone as our Savior and Lord.

Getting saved doesn't automatically solidify a place in heaven, especially when my life is still filled with sin. When I spen my days ridding my life of these sins I am "Working out my salvation".

This is more nonsense. I am glad I don't have to live in your shoes. The big difference between me and you is that I don't have to wonder if I am saved or not. I can stand on the Bible and know that I am saved. I have a "know-so" salvation. These verses tell me that I am saved, and that I am saved today.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

(John 5:24)

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

(Ephesians 1:13-14)

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

(1 John 5:11-13)

These three passages tell me that I can know that I HAVE (present tense) eternal life, and that I am sealed by the Holy Spirit who is the earnest (guarantee) of my inheritance in Christ. According to these passages, I can know that I am saved, and that if I die this very night I will go to be with the Lord for eternity. I know where I am going, and I know I have eternal life.

So why would I want to be like you? You don't know. You have NO assurance. You don't know if you have been good enough today. Maybe you were good enough yesterday? But what about today? What about tomorrow? What if you did really good today but blow it all tomorrow? What if you die without before having the chance to repent? You have no assurance whatsoever. You might lose your salvation tomorrow and then die before getting re-saved!!! That has to be miserable!! Never knowing when you have done enough, or worked hard enough. All you have is bunch of "junk" theology.

You can have your false teaching and work saved salvation heresies. You can trust in yourself and try to save yourself. I will follow Jesus and trust Him.

You don't know what you are talking about.