Faith and Works

[Catsmeow]

No, I'm not talking about growing weary with the Lord, brother. I struggle with thinking I need to do something more or I fear God will reject me.

Seriously. Look, I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that...but I'm being real honest. This discussion may be more for the sakes' of others who are afraid to admit that maybe we're insecure at times and fearful that we need to do something more.

I didn't always feel this way, Shiloh. Maybe I'm just under attack, too...but I struggle with this issue so I need to hear your position.

Here's one reason I suffer from this insecurity: Remember when Jesus told the parable of the three servants? One had 10 talents, another had 5 and another had only 1 talent.

The one who buried his talent in the yard was cast out into outer darkness. I've been fearful that if I didn't do more with the talents God gave me, I'd be rejected because of this.

Brother, if you can help me with this...you'd take an enormous load off my shoulders. Seriously. This has weighed me down for a long time.

Can you help me reconcile "grace" and this parable? It's a heavy load that's hard to bear. I always feel like I don't do enough ....and wrestle with my own inadequacies.

Your feedback is greatly appreciated.

[Catsmeow]

I know that I'm not legalistic...but I am confused.

[Catsmeow]

Um, Card...I'm not trying to hide my talent in the dirt. I'm disabled and very ill...but I feel very guilty that I can't do what I used to do.

I feel guilt upon guilt. I think that maybe I could do more.....

Oh, I don't wrestle with the old sins of my life as a lost person...those old sins (lying, stealing, vice, sexual immorality, gossip, et al) aren't a problem now.

It's not making use of my talents. When I was healthy, I had bodily strength and could serve God. Now, I agonize over not being able to do the things I used to do.

So, I get so upset when I don't pray as much or read my bible as much. I'm too weak to attend church or witness; I can only do such things online.

When I do get out (*which isn't often) I do distribute tracts...but it's not much compared to what I used to do. Now, I just feel defeated and frightened that God is displeased with me.

[MrSealedEternal]

catsmeow

Let me go foward with what you are saying. Paul wrote about the war that is his members that. (Romans 7:14-25)

I will say this again, after we are saved and we do have our place in heave and are sealed by the Holy Spirit and no man can take this from me. This is God's grace.

We can fall from this grace when we allow sin to reign in our mortal bodies. I can take myself right out of God's hands with the sins that I allow and keep in my life. I'm not speaking of the sins that we committ everyday, I'm speaking of the sins that I choose not to give up.

You fall from grace by trying to save yourself with works, not by sinning. You have it backwards.

Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

You're argument is self refuting because you seem to have two contradictory gospels. You're first gospel was the correct one. You have a place reserved in Heaven when you are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and you're also correct that no man can take it from you.

John 10:28,29

[Catsmeow]

Sealed Eternal: who are you addressing? Card or Cats(myself)?

[MrSealedEternal]

Sealed Eternal: who are you addressing? Card or Cats(myself)?

I was responding to his message to you.

Mr SE

[Catsmeow]

Whew!

I know I know the Lord and love Him so much it hurts...but I wrestle continually with guilt. When I was able-bodied, I felt fine. Once I lost my mobility, I felt like a failure who let God down.

I am by profession, a teacher. I taught in the mission field overseas and felt so rich and full and productive. When I returned home to the states, I went slowly and gradually into a deep depression, feeling useless and defeated.

I felt like someone with no legs but felt guilty because I couldn't walk. Now I'm trying to be resourceful with the little I have to offer the Lord...but I still struggle with guilt.

[eric]

cardcaptor

You are way out of whack. I didn't give all kinds of evil living, because I consisered what I was doing were bad "works" I had never heard of good or bad works. I was sick of not being able to sleep nights because of all the baggage I was dragging around.

Okay, when The Holy spirit convicted me, It was the work that Christ did on the cross and His blood that cleansed me of my sin, nothing I did, no works on my part. It was through God's grace that I received the gift of faith that enabled my salvation.

Jesus said to His disciples, that when the Holy spirit falls on you, you will will receive power and you will be My witnesses. Without Christ you are nothing and you can be a paragon of perfection in the world and do all kinds of works, but if you haven't got Jesus your works will be in vain. The pathway to hell is paved with good works and good intentions. The parable of the talents isn't about money or material possessions, it's about Him and not investing His word, but keeping it to yourself instead of gaining interest on His word for His glory.

Take Shiloh's advice and read your bible.

eric

[MrSealedEternal]

Whew!

I know I know the Lord and love Him so much it hurts...but I wrestle continually with guilt. When I was able-bodied, I felt fine. Once I lost my mobility, I felt like a failure who let God down.

I am by profession, a teacher. I taught in the mission field overseas and felt so rich and full and productive. When I returned home to the states, I went slowly and gradually into a deep depression, feeling useless and defeated.

I felt like someone with no legs but felt guilty because I couldn't walk. Now I'm trying to be resourceful with the little I have to offer the Lord...but I still struggle with guilt.

He knows your heart, and expects only what you are able to give. He wants you to have faith in him first and formost. If you truly do, He has already paid for all of your sins, and wants you to be with Him in Heaven. If you love Him, He can use you. His plan for you may include your condition in some way, so do what you can with what you have. Don't let anyone tell you, that you are justified by how much you have done. God will, or has, saved you by His grace through faith alone, and it is not of your works, but rather His gift to you, if you truly trust Him.

Mr SE

[Guest shiloh357]

I will say this again, after we are saved and we do have our place in heave and are sealed by the Holy Spirit and no man can take this from me. This is God's grace.

We can fall from this grace when we allow sin to reign in our mortal bodies. I can take myself right out of God's hands with the sins that I allow and keep in my life. I'm not speaking of the sins that we committ everyday, I'm speaking of the sins that I choose not to give up.

If you would stop and think out this reasoning it should be clear. Since we know that sins that I choose to live in like adultry, stealing, lying, drunkeness, etc. will keep me out of heaven causeing me to lose my salvation and fall from grace, would it stand clear that if I repented of all these sins that I have kept myself from going to hell?

It is my choice to quit being a drunkard. Christ only has a hand in it if I choose to repent and then by his mercy and grace will help me to overcome that sin.

Do you even believe that living in sin will take you to hell?

1. No, you do not fall from grace when you fall into sin. That demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about grace. Grace is not a position that you can fall from. Grace is the over expression of God's favor lavished upon those who deserve His utmost disfavor.

Grace is not there simply when you are living right, and then taken from you when you fall into sin. What would be the point of grace only being bestowed upon his when are doing what is right. If so, then grace is a reward and not a gift.

2. There is no basis as I demonstrated in your mishandling of 1 Cor. 6:9, to say that sins keep you out of heaven. It is the sinful condition of the unregenerate heart that keeps people out of heaven. Salvation is first and foremost a regeneration of the heart.

People like you confuse Scriptures that speak of sanctification with Scriptures that speak of justification. Justification is not dependent on sanctification. They are mutually independent of each other. One does not rest on the other. Salvation is given to us independent of our conduct. It is solely the gift of God through Christ.

And to answer your question... Living in sin is not what takes people to hell. That is symptom of a greater problem, and it is that problem that sends people to hell. People who live unrepentently in sin, yet claim to be Christians, should re-examine the authenticity of their salvation experience.

Revelations 21:7, 8 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Why is it so hard to grasp the concept that if I don't overcome these sins with faith in Christ I will lose my salvation?

Overcoming these sins is my works. When I overcome my problem with lying I am working out my salvation because if I don't stop lying I will go to hell.

Why is it so hard for you to believe the Bible when it says that we have already overcome through our faith. You are striving to gain what I already have by faith. You can work all you want. I will rest in Jesus. You can live in doubt and refuse to believe the Bible, I will believe what God says. I am already an overcomer by my faith in Jesus. I am not going to descend to your level and try to earn what I already have by God's grace. Why would I want to be like you? You are trying to overcome. I already have. Good luck.

Yes, we are new creatures in Christ after salvation, but my inner man still needs work to learn to be more patient, understanding, loving, merciful, honest, etc. This is not automatic.

No it is your flesh, your will mind and emotions that have to learn how to be be more patient, understanding, etc. Your inner man has been recreated in the image of Christ. Nothing else can change for your inner man. Your inner man is not the problem any more. It is your soulish area, your mind, will and emotions that must come under the authority of, and in line with, the Word of God. You are focusing on the wrong parts because you don't understand the essence of salvation.

2 Corinthians 5:9, 10 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

WOW!! We actually have to labour to be accepted of Christ? And then to be judged by the works that we are labouring to do?

Being accepted by Christ is not referring to salvation. It is our desire to please Him to do those things that are acceptable in His sight. That is why we labor. We are not laboring to be saved. Rather our desire to labor for Christ is the outworking of the salvation we already received, not a means of securing or gaining salvation. Again, the judgement spoken of in this passage is a reference to the judgement seat of Christ, which is a different judgement that occurs for the saints prior to the Millenium, from the great white throne judgement that occurs in Revelation 20.

Since you are stating that works don't save us and all works are is our obedience in the Gospel Of Christ then you are stating that obedience doesn't save me from hell. Tha't not what this verse says:

2 thessalonians 1:7-9 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

So, if not obeying the gospel will send me to hell then doesn't it stand to reason that obeying the gospel will save me from hell? That means that obedience also saves us.

Your problem with that verse is that there are two things that are included in the description of the disobedient. It says they know not God AND are do not obey the gospel. The gospel says that we are to trust Christ for salvation. That is the commandment of the gospel. So, this is talking about sinners who reject Christ. Disobedience to gospel will send people to hell. It does not follow that disobedience (sinning in general) will send anyone to hell. If it did, not one of us have a chance.

Obedience to the gospel saves. Obedience to the ten commandments does not save. You cannot just make a blanket statement declaring that obedience saves. That is simply not true.

We had nothing to do with the grace of God in sending his son to die for us. If we truly believe in God and obey him unto salvation through our faith we will obtain heaven (John 3:16). This is solid and unrefutable.

What people are failing to understand is that our Christianity doesn't stop there. In order to keep our place in heaven we must be faithful to Christ until death. If I never repent of my sins then I will lose that grace and my place in heaven

Who said anything about not repenting of sin???? If you never repented of your sin, you would not be saved in the first place. You would not have place in heaven to lose.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.

If you would read all of chapters 2 & 3 you will see that he was referring to the Old Law.

The second one is in 2 Timothy 1:9, "not according to our works".

But that is not all that the Bible has to say about the subject. You seem to forget a verse I made reference to yesterday

But after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:4-5) So tell me, do you consider "works of righteousness" works of the Law, or works of the New Testament. The Bible says we are not saved by works of righteousness. If good works of the New Testament are not works of righteousness, what are they??? Pauls says we are not saved by them.

Paul makes no distinction between Old and New Testaments. Paul taught everything out of the Old Testament. The entire New Testament is written out of Old Testament knowledge. You simply cannot make such a silly distinction between good works and works of the law. The law told us what good works are. The New Testament affirms that. It does not present us with a different moral code.

2 Peter 2:20-22 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

I have seen Christians who where strong preachers and teachers for around 30 years in the Church turn their backs on God and go back into the world because they loved sin more than God. They are on their way to hell unless they repent.

That is talking about out and out apostasy. It is not talking about falling into sin. apostasy is a different matter altogether, and belongs in a different thread. The Bible makes it clear that apostasy can and does happen, and there are warnings about it all over the NT. There is no debate there, but that is not the subject under discussion. Apostasy is one thing. Falling into sin is another.

Revelations 2:5 Rememeber therefore from where thou are fallen, and repent, and do the first works.

The reason why those Christians fell and why these seven churches fell in Revelations is because they left off doing thier first works which were repenting from thier sins. Each time I repent from a sin I committed a work. So if you are saying that repentance doesn't save us then you are missing the point, because if I don't repent I won't make it to heaven.

Repentance is not salvific. Repentance is what leads to salvation, but it does not save in and of itself. Repentance should be a daily thing in the life of every believer, and unfortunately it is not.

As for Rev. 2:5. This was written to the pastor of the Church of Ephesus. This was not a warning about his salvation but rather that his candlestick (his position as pastor) would be removed. Jesus was not saying that he had fallen from grace or from salvation. But that had in respect to is degree of past service he fallen far from where he was before. Jesus was telling him to return to what he was doing to before, the first works. He was being admonished to get back on track.

Honestly, you need to learn how to interpret Scripture.

Ecclesiastes 12:13, 14 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.

You speak of fear. Yes I need to fear as it says in this passage. The fear of God that I have is that he will cast both body and soul into hell if I don't keep his commandments. I will be my bottom dollar that you don't believe that.

Well the difference between you and me is that I believe in the grace of God, and you don't. Nowhere does God say that you are doomed to hell when you fail. The difference between you and I is that where sin is concerned, I have already passed from judgement into life.

The Bible says:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)

I am not saying that we do not need to repent, or that it is OK to live in sin. I am saying that we don't have to live in fear that God is going to throw us away when we screw up, even when we screw up big time. God does not work that way. I have eternal life, and I have passed from death into life, and therefore I will not come under condemnation. I have already been judged. I as judged righteous when I made Jesus the Lord of my life. I don't have to work like you, because you are trying to earn what you can only receive as a free gift. I workout my salvation not to earn heaven, but so that others might know Jesus too. I strive for my life to be a living testimony of the grace of God. You strive just to keep God's grace. I would not want to be like you.