The Three Covenants

[Jedi4Yahweh]

On 9/9/2022 at 1:00 PM, tim_from_pa said:

I used to teach that Covenants were "crossroads" in the bible where the Lord made promises and means to carry out His purpose (and thus the meaning of the whole Bible story itself) and served a similar purpose as the feasts of the Lord in which each feast, Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Weeks, Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Tabernacles week, and finally the "Last Great Day" were all the Lord's plan for salvation for mankind at each and every feast (step) from the crucifixion all the way to the end at the Great White Throne Judgement.

As for covenants:

1.  Adamic (and that can be broken up into two parts)

2.  Noahic

3. Abrahamic (and this can go into a long dissertation in and of itself)

4. Palestinian (this is a bit redundant IMO)

5 Mosaic

6 Davidic (an extension of the Abrahamic) and

7 New Covenant

#7 replaces #5 if by that you mean the Levitical order (not the morality contained in the Law) because it was first a heart of stone (written on the tablets) and then a heart of flesh (by Jesus Christ coming and the spirit) thus proving we are not good or law abiders in and of ourselves, but need the Spirit of God

The other covenants,  with the exception of some such as the Adamic where Christ is promised, basically had to do with earthly promises, and the means of an order and kingdom to be set up.   So many of them were to introduce the coming Kingdom of God as an actual political structure in which #5 and #7 are the Laws within that Kingdom. That's how the Lord chosen to reverse the curse by these means.  One cannot join this new Kingdom unless they are obedient to, and by nature partakers of God's commands.  

The church today is concerned with #5 and #7 mostly, but the others are unaffected by these covenants and stand alone (but as stated are the order for #5 and #7). This is why there is so much confusion regarding the Lord's return or if he returns here to the earth at all.  It's because the earthly Kingdom promises are misunderstood. After all, Abraham was promised the land with specific boundaries for example, so it has to come to pass yet. Yet, the other covenants are "spirtualized" whatever that means so that they are effectively dismissed and the Old Testament is truncated.

All the covenants are extentions of the former covenant.  I agree some of the covenants you mentined are redundant.  The mosaic and davidic covenant are essential the coveant given to Abraham and is discendants.   So you see the main covenants like this:

1. Adam covenant (promised dominion over God's creation)

2. Noah covenant (promised to never to distroy the world by flood)

3. Abraham covenant (promised his desendants would inherit to the land of Israel and his seed would become blessing to all the nations.)

      a. Moses covenant is God fulfilling the Abraham promise.

4. David covenant (promised one of his discendants would bring about an eternal Kingdom/this is still falls under the Abraham covenant)

7. New covenant (eternal covenant/eternal life/eternal kingdom)  This is essential the fullfilling of all the covenants.

[tim_from_pa]

21 minutes ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

All the covenants are extentions of the former covenant.  I agree some of the covenants you mentined are redundant.  The mosaic and davidic covenant are essential the coveant given to Abraham and is discendants.   So you see the main covenants like this:

1. Adam covenant (promised dominion over God's creation)

2. Noah covenant (promised to never to distroy the world by flood)

3. Abraham covenant (promised his desendants would inherit to the land of Israel and his seed would become blessing to all the nations.)

      a. Moses covenant is God fulfilling the Abraham promise.

4. David covenant (promised one of his discendants would bring about an eternal Kingdom/this is still falls under the Abraham covenant)

7. New covenant (eternal covenant/eternal life/eternal kingdom)  This is essential the fullfilling of all the covenants.

OK, I can dig that.  It seems that if we want we can whittle the 7 covenants I enumerated down to 3 main ones pertaining to the Kingdom:

1.  Abrahamic (to do with the structure of the Kingdom)

2. Mosaic (the Laws within that Kingdom) and

3, New (the Law by the Spirit written in the hearts of men, i.e. the Mosaic adequately expresses the righteous standards, in which a man who does this will live.  Of course by the flesh this is impossible so it was a lesson to bring us from #2 to #3).

The Adamic and Noahic is as you say for mankind (Gentiles). That leaves the Palestinian which was about land (also promised to Abraham) and Davidic (Abraham was promised Kings)  I think these latter two are merely fine tuning the earlier ones.  In Abraham's case, the Kingly line was in Judah, realized by Jacob in his blessings.  In the Davidic, it was a specific family in Judah for example.

[Guest]

On 9/9/2022 at 1:00 PM, tim_from_pa said:

I used to teach that Covenants were "crossroads" in the bible where the Lord made promises and means to carry out His purpose

This article is in reference to the three primary Covenants from which all covenants derive: The Old Covenant (for Israel, which comprises 90% of the Bible); the present Covenant in Christ's Blood which the old covenant typifies of His sacrifice for expiation of our sin; and Israel's final Covenant with God (Jer 31:31-34; Eze 36:24-28).

The present Covenant is the "Eternal Covenant" of Christians known as the Covenant of Redemption, in which the Father covenanted with His Son that He would raise Him from the dead when He expiated the sin of those who will believe in Him (Heb 13:20-21).

Israel believing in God (Jhn 14:1) but not in Jesus will not inherit son-ship, but just remain a people of God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by WordSword

[Jedi4Yahweh]

17 hours ago, tim_from_pa said:

OK, I can dig that.  It seems that if we want we can whittle the 7 covenants I enumerated down to 3 main ones pertaining to the Kingdom:

1.  Abrahamic (to do with the structure of the Kingdom)

2. Mosaic (the Laws within that Kingdom) and

3, New (the Law by the Spirit written in the hearts of men, i.e. the Mosaic adequately expresses the righteous standards, in which a man who does this will live.  Of course by the flesh this is impossible so it was a lesson to bring us from #2 to #3).

The Adamic and Noahic is as you say for mankind (Gentiles). That leaves the Palestinian which was about land (also promised to Abraham) and Davidic (Abraham was promised Kings)  I think these latter two are merely fine tuning the earlier ones.  In Abraham's case, the Kingly line was in Judah, realized by Jacob in his blessings.  In the Davidic, it was a specific family in Judah for example.

The new covenant is technically a covenant to Israel.  It was through the mercy and grace of God that it was extended to gentiles because of Israel's rejection of the New Covenant...but this was all part of God's redeemptive plan. It was already prophecied 100's of year before, that they would reject the new covenant.  When Yahshua (Jesus) came he forknew that they would reject him and crucify him.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. [Jer 31:31-34 KJV]

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Revelation Man]

On 9/9/2022 at 1:00 PM, tim_from_pa said:

As for covenants:

1.  Adamic (and that can be broken up into two parts)

2.  Noahic

3. Abrahamic (and this can go into a long dissertation in and of itself)

The Adamic and Noahic covenants were just the Abrahamic Covenant coming to reality. That is why I discount them and/or by-pass their importance to all things except Prophetic Importance.

On 9/9/2022 at 1:00 PM, tim_from_pa said:

5 Mosaic

6 Davidic (an extension of the Abrahamic) and

7 New Covenant

The Mosaic covenant (Law) was simply added because of sin, and the Davidic Covenant as you say is an extension of the Abrahamic Covenant. The "New Covenant" is only called "NEW" because unto the Jews 2000 years ago whom Peter, Paul and the Disciples were preaching unto, and even Jesus, they saw the Mosaic Law as THE COVENANT, so they had to be told there was a New Covenant, but its not a new covenant, just "NEW" to them in their old ways of thinking. The so called New Covenant is just the Abrahamic PROMISE being fulfilled, Galatians chapter 3 explains all this in vivid detail. Paul was not telling the Galatians that Jews and Greeks/Gentiles were now ALL ONE, that is a misunderstanding of the chapter, after I explain it reread it and see of it makes sense.

Paul is saying "O foolish Galatians who has bewitched you (deceived you), that starting out in spirit or Faith, you are now living in the Flesh" which simply means you started out living in the Spirit and are now trying to please God by serving the flesh (pleasing God via THE LAW). So, basically throughout the whole chapter Paul is chastising them, saying why did you start out in the faith but are now trying to make heaven by being "Jewish" and observing the Laws of Moses !! Then he goes on to saw, HEY.........The law was only added 430 years later and only because of Israel sin, THE PROMISE was of the SEED (Jesus) to come, once the Law was the schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ Jesus, once Jesus had come we no longer need the schoolmaster (Law) we are to live by FAITH ALONE.

That is when Paul says, there is neither Jew nor Greek (STOP trying to be Jewish in order to make it to heaven), Male nor Female, Slave nor Freeman in Christ, so are there still Males and Females? Of course, so Paul's point is not that the Jews and Greeks are now ALL ONE, no more than he is saying that Males and Females are all one sex, he is simply saying STOP trying to keep the law, we are all seen by God as one in Christ who come unto him by FAITH ALONE, both Jew and Greek, Male and Female etc. God only sees our FAITH is Paul's point, he is nit saying there are no males and females or Greeks and Jews. Not many see that chapter and understand it tbh.

As per this.............BELOW

On 9/9/2022 at 1:00 PM, tim_from_pa said:

I used to teach that Covenants were "crossroads" in the bible where the Lord made promises and means to carry out His purpose (and thus the meaning of the whole Bible story itself) and served a similar purpose as the feasts of the Lord in which each feast, Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Weeks, Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Tabernacles week, and finally the "Last Great Day" were all the Lord's plan for salvation for mankind at each and every feast (step) from the crucifixion all the way to the end at the Great White Throne Judgement.

God via the 7 Feasts had Israel celebrating the whole history of the world in 7 Feasts called Holy Convocations which in Hebrew simply means "Dress Rehearsals" and each Feast represents a TIME FRAME of things Jesus fulfills in history.

The Three Spring Feasts

1.) Passover (Jesus fulfilled this via the shedding of his blood, he is our Passover.)

2.) Unleavened Bread (Jesus knew no sin, thus Jesus was Unleavened from Sin.)

3.) First-fruits (Jesus was the first-fruits of the grave. Amen)

Summer Harvest

4.) The Feast of Weeks/Summer Harvest/Church Age ( This has to be tied in with the Feast of Trumps in order to give clarity to the situation, which is the end times we are in now. Jesus of course has already fulfilled the three spring feasts, now he is Harvesting souls as the head of the Church (body of Christ), thus the Church Age HARVEST is ongoing !! Amen. We are harvesting souls daily, NOTICE: this feast is all alone on the calendar unto itself, just like the Church Age is the calling of the Gentiles mission for God. During these 7 Feasts, the Summer Harvest was always ended by the New Year which of course came in with a New Moon since Israel were on God's Lunar Calendar, thus the EXACT day nor hour could ever be a known entity, the new moon could come in over a 2 day period of time so Israel of course knew THE SEASON (as we should and do) and thus they send two witnesses up into the mountains to spy out when the new moon (and New Year) would arrive, once they saw it arrive the two witnesses sent word back the the Israeli leaders and they started blowing the Shofar (Trumpets) in 9 sets of 11 or 99 times, then on the "LAST TRUMP" thy blew it longer & louder than the other 99 and this OFFICIALLY ENDED the Summer Harvest (THINK Church Age) and Rev. 4:1 thus describes Jesus voice as sounding as a Trumpet as he calls John to "COME UP HERE" (Rapture).

Fall Feasts yet to be fulfilled by Jesus.

5.) The Feast of Trumps (Jesus fulfills this when he calls his Church to heaven for the Marriage, we will marry Jesus in his Fathers Mansion (Heaven) and live there for 7 years, just like a Jewish Bride and Groom spend 7 days in the Marriage Chambers. We return to earth for the Marriage Supper (Armageddon).

6.) The Feast of Atonement ( Who is it that needs to ATONE? Israel of course, Jesus can not fulfill all unto Israel repents, Dan. 9:24-27 says so. So, EACH Feast is a moment in history as foretold by God unto Israel long before they understood any of these things. Just after the Feast of Trumps (Rapture) and just before the coming Day of the Lord (Gods 1260 Wrath) Israel repents or ATONES. Amen.)

7.) The Feasts of Tabernacle ( The word TABERNACLE simply means TO DWELL with God and since Jesus will be ruling from Jerusalem for 1000 years that means Israel will DWELL with God. Thus Jesus fulfills all 7 of the Feasts. So, the Feasts are a part of all human history.)

 

[Jedi4Yahweh]

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Just after the Feast of Trumps (Rapture) and just before the coming Day of the Lord (Gods 1260 Wrath) Israel repents or ATONES. Amen.)

Aman...this what I believe as well.  The gathering at the last trumpet (7th Trumpet) before the Wrath of God is poured out on earth.    The Feast of Tabernacles is the marriage gathering of all the saints.  

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. - Rev 19:7-9 

[Revelation Man]

22 hours ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Aman...this what I believe as well.  The gathering at the last trumpet (7th Trumpet) before the Wrath of God is poured out on earth.    The Feast of Tabernacles is the marriage gathering of all the saints.  

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. - Rev 19:7-9 

Well, sorta, but you see let me clarify a bit. I do not think the Judgment Trumps of Revelation have anything to do with the Last Trump, God doesn't use a Judgment Trumpet to call his bride home. The Last Trump ends the Church Age, its just Jesus calling us to Heaven for a 7 Year visit where we marry Jesus then spend 7 years in the marriage chambers (Heaven) before we return in Rev. 19, and where we see the Beast and all his minions are still on earth, AFTER we return from heaven.

Thus the Trumpet that ends the Harvest is the Church being Raptured Pre Trib. Then Israel is back on the clock where they must repent, then DWELL with God/Jesus 1000 years. The Kingdom Age is a real 1000 year  event, which is why Go intervened they way He did, His mercy abides. He saw Israel as not getting the overall job done (Worldwide repentance) so He used the Pax Romanus timeframe to spread the Gospel unto the whole world via the gentiles, of course via the Disciples teaching the Gentiles. All roads led to Rome (the disciples were Roman subjects) and in all of the Roman territories they used a common language, Geek Koine, God used these factors to spread His gospel unto the whole world. Amen.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Revelation Man

[Jedi4Yahweh]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Well, sorta, but you se let me clarify a bit. I do not think the Judgment Trumps of Revelation have anything to do with the Last Trump, God doesn't use a Judgment Trumpet to call his bride home. The Last Trump eds the Church Age, its just Jesus calling us to Heaven for a 7 Year visit where we marry Jesus then spend 7 years in the marriage chambers (Heaven) before we return in Rev. 19, and where we see the Beast and all his minions are still on earth, AFTER we return from heaven.

Thus the Trumpet that ends the Harvest is the Church being Raptured Pre Trib. Then Israel is back on the clock where they must repent, then DWELL with God/Jesus 1000 years. The Kingdom Age is a real 1000 year  event, which is why Go intervened they way He did, His mercy abides. He saw Israel as not getting the overall job done (Worldwide repentance) so He used the Pax Romanus timeframe to spread the Gospel unto the whole world via the gentiles, of course via the Disciples. All roads led to Rome (the disciples were Roman subjects) and in all of the Roman's territories they used a common language, Geek Koine, God used these factors to spread His gospel unto the whole world. Amen.

I guess we disagree then.

Jesus explained all the events that lead up to his 2nd coming in Mat 24 and Luke 21 and not once does he ever mention a pre-tribulation rapture.  A pre-tribulation rapture would have been very significant detail that Jesus left out.  Yet he does tell of rapture or gathering after the tribulation and at his 2nd coming.  Rev 19 which you mentioned is at the end of the tribulation period and just before his return where he makes war with Satan and all his followers in the final battle (The Day of Wrath/The Day of the Lord).

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [Mat 24:29-31 KJV]

If there is a pretribulation rapture why would Jesus have left that important detail out?

 

[Revelation Man]

On 9/13/2022 at 8:22 AM, Jedi4Yahweh said:

I guess we disagree then.

Jesus explained all the events that lead up to his 2nd coming in Mat 24 and Luke 21 and not once does he ever mention a pre-tribulation rapture. 

He was not called but unto the Lost Sheep of Israel, he however does tell his Disciples in Matt. 24:36-51 about the Rapture, one is taken and one is left. The exact same ratio as the 5 of 10 Virgins who are taken and left. It will be as in the days of Noah, rampant homosexuality etc. etc. That's an add on to the plight Israel as a nation travels, she goes though the Tribulation period in Matt. 24:15-31, God sent Jesus unto Israel only, so he gave them their plight, but he also knew some Jews would be Messianic Jews, thus he gave them their plight also in verses 36-51.

Nothing but a pre trib rapture fits, period. You can not know the DAY NOR HOUR, if one understands that they understand it ENDS THE HARVEST, thus the Rapture is Jesus ending the Harvest of souls, I explained that in depth in my other post. So, HOW can the 2nd Coming be an UNKNOWN TIME FRAME when we know exactly how many days the Beast will serve, 1260 days? And there will be billions killed, so how can it be like the days of Noah when they were eating, marrying, or having a good ole time, then the FLOOD CAME..............So, will the 2nd Coming have people having a good old time, marrying, eating and being happy, even though billions have just died? Come on, that makes no sense brother. The Rapture happens when these men, like those during Noah's time were frolicking around delighting in their wicked ways, oblivious unto the facts that God's judgments were NIGH at hand via the rains/floods (coming 70thweek judgments). Likewise, that can ONLY MEAN a pre trib Rapture. To me its not even debatable tbh. 

On 9/13/2022 at 8:22 AM, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Yet he does tell of rapture or gathering after the tribulation and at his 2nd coming.  Rev 19 which you mentioned is at the end of the tribulation period and just before his return where he makes war with Satan and all his followers in the final battle (The Day of Wrath/The Day of the Lord).

No he doesn't you just chose to call this the rapture, when it is the Second Coming and Jesus setting up a Kingdom in Jerusalem, with 5 million Jews who come to Christ just before the DOTL. We (Church) are WITH Jesus and we are in Heaven in Rev. 19 marrying the lamb, in heaven, before that Return. 

On 9/13/2022 at 8:22 AM, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [Mat 24:29-31 KJV]

If there is a pretribulation rapture why would Jesus have left that important detail out?

Immediately AFTER the Tribulation Jesus RETURNS with who? The Church, Rev. 19 tells you this brother. You are conflating the Rapture and the Second Coming. 

God Bless.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Revelation Man

[Jedi4Yahweh]

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

he however does tell his Disciples in Matt. 24:36-51 about the Rapture, one is taken and one is left. The exact same ratio as the 5 of 10 Virgins who are taken and left.

That is a lot of speculation to say this is referring to a pre-tribulation rapture this could also apply to mid and post as well.  Regarding one taken one left, I believe is referring to Jerusalem being captured and people being taken into captivity according to Zachariah 14. 

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. [Zec 14:2-4 KJV]  This is why Jesus says the people who live in Judea should flee to the mountains and not look back.

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Nothing but a pre trib rapture fits, period. You can not know the DAY NOR HOUR, if one understands that they understand it ENDS THE HARVEST, thus the Rapture is Jesus ending the Harvest of souls, I explained that in depth in my other post. So, HOW can the 2nd Comin be an UNKOWN TIME FRAME when we know exactly how many days the Beast will serve, 1260 days? And there will be billions killed, so how can it be like the days of Noa when they were eating, marrying, or having a good ole time, then the FLOOD CAME..............So, will te 2nd Coming have people have a good old time, marrying, eating and being happy, even though billions have just died? Come on, that makes no sense brother. The Rapture happens when these men, like those during Noah's time were frolicking around delighting in their wicked ways, oblivious unto the facts that God's judgments were NIGH at hand via the rains/floods. Likewise, that can ONLY MEAN a pre trib Rapture. To me its not even debatable tbh. 

You are conflicting Tribulation with God's Wrath.  The tribulation is Satan's Wrath because he knows his time is short.  Yes we are saved from the Wrath of God but we are promised tribulation in the world.  Yes, the world who gives into beast will continue to marry, eat and be joyful as believers are being persecuted, oppressed and killed.  Regarding the time,  Jesus said you will not know the day or hour but you will know the season of his return.  Majority of the false church and world will deny that what is taken place has anything to do with what Jesus warned us about and they will fall inline with the Anti-Christ and his followers.  Most of the church world will deny he is the Anti-Christ and consider him a great world leader of unity and peace.  This is why we are warned to be not deceived, to stay alert, and to watch for their will be a great falling away from the faith.  We will not know the exact day nor hour but we will know when he is near.  For many will not be watching or aware of what is taken place until its to late.  Yes those who are watching and waiting will know and be saved just like Noah and Lot were saved from the wrath of God.

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Immediately AFTER the Tribulation Jesus RETURNS with who? The Church, Rev. 19 tells you this brother. You are conflating the Rapture and the Second Coming. 

The second coming and rapture is the same event.   Paul equates it as the same event:  

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, [2Th 2:1 KJV]

Also, scriptures does not say he returns with his Church but with the armies of heaven.  The armies of heaven are most likely a reference to his angelic army.  The bible say we meet him at his coming not that we come from heaven with him.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. [1Th 4:16-17 NKJV]

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [Mat 24:30-31 KJV]

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Jedi4Yahweh