Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[Vine Abider]

I heard a brother speak this past Sunday to our little group.  We're in the book of Revelation now and he was speaking on chapter 11.  He said something that I think brought me back to a proper perspective, and I thought to convey here.

He asked the group how many pre-tribers there were, and several raised their hands.  He then asked how many post-tribbers there were there, and several others raised their hands. Then in succession he asked about ammillenialists, pre-wrath and a few others I wasn't sure I'd heard of. Various ones raised their hands  He then said, "Each view has numerous, brilliant scholars who are far smarter than me, who have studied long and hard to come to their respective conclusions.  That's why I'm a pan-trib . . . that is, it'll all just pan out!"  

He also talked about how we're told in Daniel chapter 12, that these things are sealed until the end times, so we shouldn't be too surprised that we each see different things related to raptures, the kingdom, etc.  I thought that put things in perspective a bit . . . at least for me.

Of course, that doesn't mean we shouldn't explore things like the rapture, but not to get too wrapped around the axel about all of it.  God is still on the throne, He loves us and we win!

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Long-held thoughts and beliefs are hard to change when you’re brought up in a particular denomination, doctrines, and teaching; I will give you that. There are many godly biblical expositors and scholars with widely different views of who and the timing of the harpazo, and it makes me wonder if that was the Lord’s intention.

·         To not wholly reveal His hand to Satan, as the OT is concealed and the NT reveals.

·         Always be ready at any time for the Lord’s return, do not be surprised and not looking or ready.

As you mention, no, John is not part of the harpazo. Though the word “harpazo” is not mentioned, John was clearly transported to heaven in the spirit. As you mentioned in another thread, harpazo only means supernatural movement, such as when Phillip was raptured to another location and Elijah. There is strong evidence Elijah was transported to another place on earth, not Heaven, but that is another topic.

The beloved apostle was summed to Heaven for a task, to be a witness, recorder, and scribe. There was a man about… The apostle Paul also witnessed Heaven, whether in the body or spirit, not to mention Stephen.

Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

With the “new song” and kings and priests, it still looks like the 24 Elders, representing the general harpazo.

Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Nowhere in the Bible are angels said to have crowns or be awarded crowns, only victors who won the race (humans). That is a difficult one to get around. By reasoning, this has to be the redeemed covered with the blood of the Lamb clothed in white raiment with crowns (reward).

“If the 24 Elders are men, how do they get their crowns before Jesus? To cast them down at the coronation of our Lord Jesus assumes that they were already wearing them. But if they belonged to a heavenly principality all is logical and correct.”

Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Jesus wears many diadems and crowns. I surmise the crowns, rewards, and rulership will be awarded at the Bema Seat of Christ. I believe the book of Revelation is written in chronological order, with parenthetical chapters inserted. Based on this, I think crowns are awarded before the Tribulation even begins.

Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

“But even more telling is that the Old Testament saints of Matthew 27:52-53 should definitely be in heaven but nothing is said of them. That is, there are men in heaven but Chapter 4 does not allude to them.”

Yes, chapter four does not, but chapter seven does. Chapter seven is the first parenthetical chapter. Giving additional information for the previous chapters.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

“Chapter 4 begins with "AFTER THIS" - indicating that the Lord has come for the firstfruits (Overcomers). The House of God thus divided. If it is divided it cannot be called a House anymore.”

I take “AFTER THIS” to mean a conclusion of past and present in John’s Day, starting the prophetic future of chapter four. “After this” in context can also be interpreted as “come up hither”, the movement of the church (harpazo) in my opinion.

“The most prolific teachers of a general rapture before the Great Tribulation were the Plymouth Brethren. Their contribution was great, but in this point they missed it. Yet, their influence was considerable and the teaching of both Christian universities and works of fiction have had an effect.”

I am unfamiliar with what the Plymouth Brethren taught, and I live in America. 😊 My bad. I see the “Great Tribulation” as the last half of the seven years.
 

As always, an interesting conversation with much to learn.

I hear you brother. Your reasoning is good and many great scholars hold what you hold. What more shall I say? You have conducted debate like an officer and a gentleman. Perhaps a consideration.

Chapter 7 reveals two companies of mankind. (i) A select group of Israelites, which I take to be the Remnant of Romans 9 and 11. Like Ezekiel 9:4-6, these are "marked" or "sealed" so that the mechanism of God's judgment does not hurt them. (ii) The second company is from all nations, cultures and tongues. They are obviously connected to our Lord Jesus. The most reliable manuscripts all include the article "the" in verse 14. It reads;

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of THE Great Tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Myself and Vine Abider have proposed a split rapture. That is, firstfruits are caught away before the Great Tribulation and the rest of Christianity must pass through part, or all of the Great Tribulation. The extra days of heat and pressure are not there to destroy them. They are there to mature them. And when we compare them to those of the parables of the Kingdom, a huge difference is at once obvious.

The slothful Christians who die before Christ's coming face, banishment, loss, weeping, gnashing of teeth and even stripes. But not this company in Chapter 7. They are exercised by the rigors of the Great Tribulation. Their tears are shed in the wilderness of Chapter 12. And having been exercised by the trial of the Great Tribulation, they are actually mature. But this does not change the fact that those who "Overcame" receive a REWARD.

Those who Overcome and who are Firstfruits are given "crowns" and may rule the Nations alongside Christ. Those of the company in Chapter 7 have their tears removed but may not rule. But they may SERVE (v.15). So we have a first hand example of God's exquisite solutions. We have the following population in the Millennium;
1.  Christ, Emmanuel, as King of kings and King of the Jews
2.  Apostles, David and martyrs with lofty ranks
3.  Overcomers as kings of cities
4.  Those of Chapter 7 SERVING in the Church*
5.  Those of the Parables in outer darkness an under chastisement
6.  Israel forgiven, resurrected and restored to their Land to SERVE Emmanuel
7.  The "sheep" of "ALL Nations" as SUBJECTS of the Kingdom in blessing
8.  The "goats" of "ALL Nations" as SUBJECTS already in the Second Death

Go well bro and don't change your beliefs until you are convinced. In some matters I took more than a decade. The Book of Life was a real problem. I think I took two decades till I was satisfied.

* The company of Chapter 7 are, to me, obvious believers. The white robes, the blood of Jesus applied, the palms and their cry of praise all point to believers. Thus, if they serve the "Temple", it must be the House "made without hands". Conversely, restored Israel surround and serve the Temple in Jerusalem of Ezekiel - Emmanuel's physical abode.

[AdHoc]

31 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

I heard a brother speak this past Sunday to our little group.  We're in the book of Revelation now and he was speaking on chapter 11.  He said something that I think brought me back to a proper perspective, and I thought to convey here.

He asked the group how many pre-tribers there were, and several raised their hands.  He then asked how many post-tribbers there were there, and several others raised their hands. Then in succession he asked about ammillenialists, pre-wrath and a few others I wasn't sure I'd heard of. Various ones raised their hands  He then said, "Each view has numerous, brilliant scholars who are far smarter than me, who have studied long and hard to come to their respective conclusions.  That's why I'm a pan-trib . . . that is, it'll all just pan out!"  

He also talked about how we're told in Daniel chapter 12, that these things are sealed until the end times, so we shouldn't be too surprised that we each see different things related to raptures, the kingdom, etc.  I thought that put things in perspective a bit . . . at least for me.

Of course, that doesn't mean we shouldn't explore things like the rapture, but not to get too wrapped around the axel about all of it.  God is still on the throne, He loves us and we win!

A beautiful example of Ephesians 4 in operation. A brother keeping the unity of the Spirit "UNTIL" we come to the unity of The Faith.

[Dennis1209]

14 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I hear you brother. Your reasoning is good and many great scholars hold what you hold. What more shall I say? You have conducted debate like an officer and a gentleman. Perhaps a consideration.

Chapter 7 reveals two companies of mankind. (i) A select group of Israelites, which I take to be the Remnant of Romans 9 and 11. Like Ezekiel 9:4-6, these are "marked" or "sealed" so that the mechanism of God's judgment does not hurt them. (ii) The second company is from all nations, cultures and tongues. They are obviously connected to our Lord Jesus. The most reliable manuscripts all include the article "the" in verse 14. It reads;

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of THE Great Tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Myself and Vine Abider have proposed a split rapture. That is, firstfruits are caught away before the Great Tribulation and the rest of Christianity must pass through part, or all of the Great Tribulation. The extra days of heat and pressure are not there to destroy them. They are there to mature them. And when we compare them to those of the parables of the Kingdom, a huge difference is at once obvious.

The slothful Christians who die before Christ's coming face, banishment, loss, weeping, gnashing of teeth and even stripes. But not this company in Chapter 7. They are exercised by the rigors of the Great Tribulation. Their tears are shed in the wilderness of Chapter 12. And having been exercised by the trial of the Great Tribulation, they are actually mature. But this does not change the fact that those who "Overcame" receive a REWARD.

Those who Overcome and who are Firstfruits are given "crowns" and may rule the Nations alongside Christ. Those of the company in Chapter 7 have their tears removed but may not rule. But they may SERVE (v.15). So we have a first hand example of God's exquisite solutions. We have the following population in the Millennium;
1.  Christ, Emmanuel, as King of kings and King of the Jews
2.  Apostles, David and martyrs with lofty ranks
3.  Overcomers as kings of cities
4.  Those of Chapter 7 SERVING in the Church*
5.  Those of the Parables in outer darkness an under chastisement
6.  Israel forgiven, resurrected and restored to their Land to SERVE Emmanuel
7.  The "sheep" of "ALL Nations" as SUBJECTS of the Kingdom in blessing
8.  The "goats" of "ALL Nations" as SUBJECTS already in the Second Death

Go well bro and don't change your beliefs until you are convinced. In some matters I took more than a decade. The Book of Life was a real problem. I think I took two decades till I was satisfied.

* The company of Chapter 7 are, to me, obvious believers. The white robes, the blood of Jesus applied, the palms and their cry of praise all point to believers. Thus, if they serve the "Temple", it must be the House "made without hands". Conversely, restored Israel surround and serve the Temple in Jerusalem of Ezekiel - Emmanuel's physical abode.

I mentioned this before, and it seems to fit your eschatology. It appears to me the Tribulation saints have their tears removed immediately, and there is a segment that does not have their tears removed until the end of the millennium.

It is a pleasure to discuss everything Jesus and His word. 

[Marilyn C]

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

G'day sister and thank you for taking the time to show your view. Your main objection is that the Kingdom on earth and the rewards attached to it are for Israel. Further, you deny a harvest for the Body of Christ. But if you go point for point through your posting, you never post scriptures that say what you maintain.

 

Hi Ad Hoc,

I posted 10 scriptures in regards to answering your points and some of those were regarding what I believe. However, I would be pleased to quote more from God`s word revealing that the Body of Christ is a spiritual organism, and NOT of the earth. Thus NOT a harvest of the earth as the others are.

The Body of Christ is a spiritual body.

`For by one Spirit we were all baptised into one Body,...` (1 Cor. 12: 13)

Each member is placed in the Body by God.

`But now God has set the members, each one of them in the Body just as he pleased.` (1 Cor. 12: 18)

`Now you are the Body of Christ, and members individually. ` (1 Cor. 12: 27)

The Body of Christ is held together by the Holy Spirit.

`endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one Body and one Spirit...` (Eph. 4: 3 & 4)

The Body of Christ is built up and matured by the Holy Spirit through the members.

`speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the Head - Christ from whom the whole body joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes the growth of the Body for the edifying of itself in love.` (Eph. 4: 15 & 16)

The Body of Christ`s spiritual position is in Christ in heavenly places.

`...raised us up together, and made to sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.` (Eph. 2: 6)

The Body of Christ is made like unto the Head, the heavenly man. First we are born of the Spirit of God,

`That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit.` (John 3: 6)

Then we partake of Christ`s very divine nature.

`...through these you may be partakers of the divine nature,...` (2 Peter 1: 4)

When the Body of Christ has been brought to maturity of truth in Christ,

 `...till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of Go, to a perfect, (mature) man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 13)

then it will be taken to its eternal setting in glory with Christ on His own throne.

`To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne..` (Rev. 3: 21)

 

Summing up, the Body of Christ is a spiritual organism and NOT of the earth. It is made by the very Spirit of God and has the Lord as its Head. All life and functions flow from the Head throughout the Body and it grows to maturity till the Lord will come and with His Body move to His own throne in the highest position.

 

Let us appreciate that Christ is pre-eminent and far above all.

`God, (the Father) raised Him, (Christ) from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,

far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named in this age but also in that which is to come,

and He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church, which is His Body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.` (Eph. 1: 20 - 23)

[Retrobyter]

On 11/1/2022 at 7:15 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

You do err my bro.

1.     There is no harvest referring to the Body of Christ, it is of the earth. (Rev. 14: 15) We are not of this earth, but of Christ, in Christ. (Col. 3: 3)

Shalom, Marilyn C.

Sorry, but that just backfired. You are the one in error, sis. We ARE of this earth, as well, since the Messiah ("Christ") returns TO REIGN HERE ON THIS EARTH!

In the following Scriptures,

Colossians 3:1-4 (KJV)

1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

"glory" is NOT A PLACE! It is a condition of GLOWING! When the Messiah appears here on this earth, then we shall appear with Him glowing brightly as HE does!

On 11/1/2022 at 7:15 PM, Marilyn C said:

2.     The 7 parables of Matt. 13 relate to the promises that God gave Israel.

            `Jesus Christ has become a servant of the circumcision for the truth of God, TO CONFIRM THE PROMISES MADE TO THE FATHERS.` (Rom. 15: 8)   

Yes, and also to Gentile believers through adoption into His mishpachah (His family)!

Don't be guilty of quoting a single verse and hanging your theology on that one verse without checking its context!

Romans 15:8-13 (KJV)

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ (Yeeshuwa` the Messiah) was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9 AND THAT THE GENTILES MIGHT GLORIFY GOD FOR HIS MERCY; as it is written,

"For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name." (2 Samuel 22:50; Psalm 18:49)

10 And again he saith,

"Rejoice, ye Gentiles, WITH HIS PEOPLE." (Deuteronomy 32:43)

11 And again,

"Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people." (Psalm 117:1)

12 And again, Esaias saith,

"There shall be a root of Jesse, and HE THAT SHALL RISE TO REIGN OVER THE GENTILES; in him shall the Gentiles trust." (Isaiah 11:10)

13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

He shall return to reign over the Gentiles as well as the children of Israel! That includes ALL of us! Especially, if one is meant to reign with the Messiah!

On 11/1/2022 at 7:15 PM, Marilyn C said:

 3.     The reason the Body of Christ is `caught away,` is because it has come to the unity of the faith. (Eph, 4: 13) and is ready to rule with the Lord on His own throne. (Rev. 3: 21) Not to `escape.`

And, just what is the "unity of the faith?" You've messed up, because you never learned the definition of this unity!

Ephesians 2:11-22 (KJV)

11 Wherefore remember, that ye (Ephesian believers) being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by that which is called the "Circumcision" in the flesh made by hands; 12 That AT THAT TIME ye were without Christ (outside of the Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 

13 But now in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeeshuwa`) ye who sometimes were far off ARE MADE NIGH (NEAR; CLOSE) BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST (THE BLOOD OF THE MESSIAH). 14 For He is our peace, who hath made both (Gentiles and children of Israel) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that He might reconcile BOTH unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you (Gentile believers) which were afar off, and to them (believers of the children of Israel) that were nigh. 18 For through Him we BOTH have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye (Ephesian believers) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the Holy Ones of God - the children of Israel), and of the household (the family) of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles (NT) and prophets (OT), Jesus Christ (Yeeshuwa` the Messiah) Himself being the chief corner stone (the CAPSTONE); 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

THIS is the "unity of the faith!" It's believing Gentiles and believing children of Israel TOGETHER! THAT'S the "unity!" You can't go off to "Heaven" and hide, thinking to rule and reign with the Messiah from there! You've got to come WITH the Messiah as He takes back His Land, reigns over His own people, the children of Israel, and then expands His Kingdom to all nations of the earth! If one is not qualified to reign with Him, he or she won't be taking on the role of a king (or queen) under the leadership of the King of kings, until such time as he or she IS deemed ready!

On 11/1/2022 at 7:15 PM, Marilyn C said:

4.     I Cor. 15 does NOT mention `harvest,` only likening a seed dying and then coming forth for us as a spiritual body.

True. One can't mix parables any more than one can mix metaphors! Once the parable is over, the elements of the parable go back into the "grab bag" of life experiences for another parable. They do NOT carry over into a different parable! Parables are stated to convey a particular thought to the reader. Once that thought has been made, the parable is no longer a part of the reasoning for new parables, UNLESS the Lord makes the connection ahead of time.

And, BE DOUBLY SURE you understand what that "spiritual" body is! (Some on this forum DON'T understand.) The Greek term is "sooma pneumatikon" and is compared against a "sooma psuchikon." And, if you're going to use the word "spiritual," then you should also invent the word "soul-ual," instead of "natural," for "pneumatikon" comes from "pneuma" just as "psuchikon" comes from "psuchee."

In mathematical terms,

psuchee : psuchikon :: pneuma : pneumatikon, 

which is read, "Psuchee is to psuchikon as pneuma is to pneumatikon."

Because "psuchee" is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew word "nefesh" (so translated in 1 Corinthians 15:45), it means "an air-breathing creature." So, by contrast, "pneuma" is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew word "ruwach" and means "a wind" or "a blast" of air; or "a (forceful) breath," by analogy; a blowing." So, "sooma psuchikon" means "an-air-breathing body"; and by way of contrast, "sooma pneumatikon" would mean "an-air-blasting body."

So, it doesn't mean "a non-physical body!" It means "a physical body capable of delivering a WIND or a BLAST of air!"

On 11/1/2022 at 7:15 PM, Marilyn C said:

5.     Phil. 3: 10 - 14. You are trying to link resurrection with harvest and that is not so. Harvest is ONLY connected to Israel and the nations for they are OF the earth. It is a harvest OF THE EARTH. And the Body of Christ is NOT OF THE EARTH, but is heavenly seated. (Eph. 2: 6)

This is a misunderstanding of Ephesians 2:6. Again, don't limit your theology to a single verse!

Ephesians 2:1-10 (KJV)

1 And you (Ephesian believers) hath he quickened, who WERE dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein IN TIME PAST ye WALKED according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation IN TIMES PAST in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 

4 BUT GOD, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ (with the Messiah), (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places (Greek: en tois epouraniois = "in the [places]-above-the-sky") in Christ Jesus: 7 That IN THE AGES TO COME he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

WE are not actually there; the Messiah Yeeshuwa` is physically there! We are there VICARIOUSLY in Him! Being "in Christ," we are A PART of Him! And, since HE is there, we are there, too, but ONLY when one considers that we are "in Him!"

Verse 7 is the key! When He returns to earth, in the ages to come, we will still be considered "IN Him," and therefore, God can lavish the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us THROUGH the Messiah Yeeshuwa`.

On 11/1/2022 at 7:15 PM, Marilyn C said:

6.     Rev. 20. These are the `first` resurrection, meaning TYPE OF - to LIFE. There are only two types of resurrections - one to life and one to condemnation. (John 5: 29)

BOTH resurrections are bodies of individuals coming back to life, regardless the purpose for their resurrections. The first resurrection in Revelation 20 is really just a statement that it had already occurred by verses 4 through 6. The second resurrection in Revelation 20 is found in verses 12 and 13. You are right, however, in how John 5:29 applies to these two general resurrections.

On 11/1/2022 at 7:15 PM, Marilyn C said:

7.     Lev. 23 the harvest. All to do with God`s dealings with ISRAEL.  The harvests are part of God`s time line for Israel. The different feasts, are God`s convocations.

`Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: “The feasts of the Lord, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are my Feasts.` (Lev. 23: 2)

In the whole chapter of Leviticus 23, NOT ONCE are the interpretations or representations of these feasts mentioned! They are simply a list of the feasts which the children of Israel were to keep perpetually! Every year, the cycle would begin again!

HOWEVER, they are for us, as well! Being grafted into the Kingdom of God by His Son Yeeshuwa` the Messiah, we have become a PART of the "citizenship of Israel!" Furthermore, all these feasts may include "the stranger within your gates." And, don't forget Ephesians 2:11-22 above!

On 11/1/2022 at 7:15 PM, Marilyn C said:

8.     The Reward. Here you have a confused the Body of Christ and Israel.

            The Body of Christ will rule and reign with Christ on His own throne in the     HIGHEST. (Rev. 3: 21   Eph. 1: 20 - 23 FAR ABOVE ALL).

            Israel will rule on the earth.

           All those so called qualifications are false and not for the Body of Christ. They are all written to Israel.  

Nope. Sorry, but the Kingdom of the Messiah INCLUDES both the children of Israel and the Gentile believers, as well!

Furthermore, the Messiah's own throne is NOT in the highest, nor will He reign there!

Yeeshuwa` Himself gave us these passages of Scripture: The first is a parable in which He refers to Himself as a "certain nobleman" who goes "into a far country to receive for Himself a Kingdom," but the SECOND is a prophecy of what will happen when He returns!

Luke 19:11-27 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy till I come.'

14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have this man to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.'

17 "And he said unto him,

"'Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.'

18 "And the second came, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.'

19 "And he said likewise to him,

"'Be thou also over five cities.'

20 "And another came, saying,

"'Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.'

22 "And he saith unto him,

"'Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant! Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?'

24 "And he said unto them that stood by,

"'Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds!'

25 ("And they said unto him,

"'Lord, he hath ten pounds!') 

26 "'For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me!'

Matthew 25:31-46 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory (His brightness; His shining; His fame): 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand,

"'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.'

37 "Then shall the righteous answer him, saying,

"'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?'

40 "And the King shall answer and say unto them,

"'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.'

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,

"'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.'

44 "Then shall they also answer him, saying,

"'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?'

45 "Then shall he answer them, saying,

"'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.'

46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

On 11/1/2022 at 7:15 PM, Marilyn C said:

9.     The judgment/reward seat of Christ is for those things done in the power of the Holy Spirit and not for self-agrandizement, (to be wealthy and famous!!!! as you said) (1 Cor. 3: 11 - 15)

The "Judgment Seat of Christ" is the "Judgment Seat of the MESSIAH!" He shall be deciding matters throughout the first 1,000 years of His Kingdom! That's the JOB of a King!

On 11/1/2022 at 7:15 PM, Marilyn C said:

Ad Hoc, God`s word is NOT all about us, but about CHRIST. It is for us to read and see God`s purposes that all rulership in every realm comes under Christ.

There is the Body of Christ, Israel and the Nations.

Get those mixed up as you have done then you just get a list of guilty things you should have done. This undermines the great sacrifice and purpose of God.

 

  Marilyn. 

You're right, Marilyn, that this is about "the Christ" or rather, "about the MESSIAH of GOD!" However, you're wrong that Yeeshuwa`s Kingdom will be over "every realm!" God the Father does His own reigning just fine! But, God the Father has given all judgment OF MEN over to His Son.

John 5:19-23 (KJV)

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."

And, why is He given all judgment? The author of Hebrews said,

Hebrews 4:14-16 (KJV)

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the THRONE of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

He called Himself the "Son of man," which means a "true human being." This is why He deserves to be the One who judges all men! He's been where we are. He knows our frailty and our weaknesses. But, He also knew how not to sin against God His Father!

We also read,

Hebrews 2:14-18 (KJV)

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

He doesn't do this "from Heaven"; He does this AMONG PEOPLE right here on this earth!

[AdHoc]

9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

I posted 10 scriptures in regards to answering your points and some of those were regarding what I believe. However, I would be pleased to quote more from God`s word revealing that the Body of Christ is a spiritual organism, and NOT of the earth. Thus NOT a harvest of the earth as the others are.

It's great that you took so much time to show the Church a spiritual institution, and I take it as respecting me. Thank you.

But there is no correlation between the origin and nature of the Church because of the Holy Spirit and God wanting fruit. One is the mechanics of the Church and the other a "gathering of its FRUIT. And so, you did not enter into one of my proofs. I'll make a short summary again for your information.

When our Lord Jesus introduced the Church, He only connected it to two points. (i) The keys of the Kingdom and (ii) the gates of Hades. In Matthew 13 our Lord equated the Kingdom with Wheat and said that the end of the age is a harvest and the reapers where angels. In 1st Corinthians 15, the resurrection from Hades has, as its Firstfruits - Jesus. And Firstfruits is the first gathering of A Harvest. This Chapter goes on to show us been planted in death. Again is implied a harvest.

In John Chapter 12 our Lord Jesus uses the picture of a grain of Wheat for Himself. It is cast into the ground, dies and brings forth much Wheat. What good is the Wheat if it stays in the field. The Husbandman - God, wants fruit. A Harvest is implied.

In John 15 our Lord depicts Himself as the True Vine. His goal - to bring forth fruit for the Father. How is it moved from the Tree to the Father's table? Why - a Harvest!

I think I'll rest my case here. The end of the age is a harvest. the angels are reapers. the Firsfruits are carried into the Father's House. James 5:7 confirms that the coming of the Lord is a long awaited HARVEST. The general harvest is carried to the Father's Barn. There are dire consequences for NO FRUIT!

[DeighAnn]

Just to 'bring to light' the FIRST problem, that being there is no Gentile Church along with there is no mention of any pre trib 'rapture' written in the words of God.  SUPPOSED by many, yes.  Written by GOD, no.  

What does it SOUND LIKE when God speaks about the future and of HIS PEOPLE?   And who are GODS PEOPLE?  

Does HE leave any questions unanswered?  Does all mention of them 'disappear'?
Is there much, if any 'guessing/conjecture/supposition'?  NO, and there is none of that going on for the final generation of the church either.  There is no 'taking away' of the 'church' so that a 'new one springs up' to take on all the tribulation of the last days.  THAT doesn't make any sense NOT TO MENTION IT ISN'T WRITTEN.

NOT A SINGLE SOUL HAS EVER PRODUCED ONE WORD WRITTEN THAT SAYS CHRIST IS LEAVING THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD WITH ALL THE ARMIES OF HEAVEN AND COMING TO THE 'AIR' OF THE EARTH TO RESURRECT THE DEAD AND CATCH UP THE ALIVE AND REMAINING AND TAKE THEM BACK TO HEAVEN. 

NOT ONE

GOD is not shy as to what will take place in the future. GOD is not shy as to who HIS children are and how we become one and what we are considered once we have.

Here is an example of what THE WORD OF THE LORD TELLS US will take place in the future.

Ezekiel 37:15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

Ezekiel 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man,

take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions:

then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

Ezekiel 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

Ezekiel 37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

Ezekiel 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

Ezekiel 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

Ezekiel 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Ezekiel 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Ezekiel 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.


 

[DeighAnn]

Just now, DeighAnn said:

Ezekiel 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 Who are GODS PEOPLE?  

22  But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

THE CHURCH IS ABRAHAMS SEED, not some 'gentile seed' that doesn't endure tribulations. 

Does the 'church' remain on earth?  

SURE, through faith they are 'guarded' in the hour of temptation.  'Kept'/guarded by the gospel armor.

SURE, they are 'delivered', but no different than all of all generations have been delivered. 

SURE, they will not suffer Gods Wrath, again, that is through faith and not escape.  

They will have to 'pick up their cross and follow Him' just like everyone

They will have to have faith and not be fearful

They should NOT be looking to 'save' their life but to 'lose it'.

They will endure to the end, not be removed from the end

They will need to STAND, not count on a fly away escape from the woe to come upon the earth

They will need to study and overcome, not allow themselves to be overcome.

Don't be taken by lies and deception, endure to the end

What are we told of the FEARFUL?  

Revelation 21

6  And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7  He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

ROMANS 8

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NOT DANGER, DEATH, THINGS PRESENT NOR THINGS TO COME

WE ARE ACCOUNTED AS SHEEP FOR THE SLAUGHTER 

THAT MEANS EVERYONE BECAUSE

IF IT DIDN'T MEAN EVERYONE THEN GOD WOULD NOT BE JUST

That is just more common-sense.  AND SINCE there is NOTHING written about a 'pre trib' catching up, who says it is of GOD?  men.

[Vine Abider]

42 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Just to 'bring to light' the FIRST problem, that being there is no Gentile Church along with there is no mention of any pre trib 'rapture' written in the words of God.  SUPPOSED by many, yes.  Written by GOD, no.  

 

Thanks for your posting!  If there is no mention of a pretrib rapture, what do you do with these two verses:

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."  Rev 3:10

"Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”  Luke 21:36 (Jesus speaking about the tribulation)

Edited November 3, 2022 by Vine Abider