Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[farouk]

5 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

[If you are referring to 1 Cor 15:23, what else could Paul mean?  We know that all believers will receive a body just like the Lord's.  Rom 6:5 - For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.  Phil 3:21 - who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.  1 John 3:2 - Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is] 

 

We KNOW the Lord was raised in a body, why wouldn't we?  If our resurrection is LIKE HIS, and His is in a body, then wouldn't ours have to be also?  Who are we to change that? 

 

 "will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body"
.

If we have laid around and gone back to dust then there is NO BODY to be TRANSFORMED is there?  Transformed takes a body, just like the alive and remaining will be 'changed'. 

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known".

Does that sound the same as

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.


to you?

"But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is"

since HE is in a glorified BODY, and we shall be like him, we MUST BE IN A glorified body.  IF we weren't then this also would not be true, correct?
 

Hi @DeighAnn Many a burial of a beloved believer has been accomplished with the reading of the words about a sowing, in certain hope of the resurrection unto life.....

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The Gentile church of today was a mystery hidden in the Father until Israel as a nation refused to accept the risen Lord as their Messiah. God then put blindness in part upon the Jews, and sent Paul to the Gentiles. The church age we are in is a parenthesis inserted into Jewish time. At the rapture, God's focus  will revert right back to what it was before Paul was sent to the Gentiles: time for the 70th week.

There will be no "rapture".  All believers will be resurrected/changed "when He comes" which is the Second Advent.

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

In other words, you can't use Daniel, or the gospels for any information on the rapture of the Gentile church. It was still a mystery then, so no scriptures directly point to us today except in Paul's letters.

Please quote the verse or verses where Paul describes the event called "the rapture", which means Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.  Thank you.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

How strange: Paul wrote of a coming for His Bride, before wrath and before the Day of the Lord. That is one more coming - his SECOND coming. In Revelation that would be before the 6th seal start of wrath. It would also be before the 7th seal start of the 70th week.

[Sorry I'm unable to properly format since the double click on the "enter" button doesn't work now.  Please quote those verses you say that Paul wrote about.  The ONLY coming He wrote about is the Second Coming.]

Jesus and John in Revelation tells us of a coming after wrath and after the tribulation: a coming to the battle of Armageddon. This will be His third coming.

[Please quote the verse or verses in Revelation about a "coming after wrath".  I'm only aware of His second advent.  Thanks.] 

Therefore I find you in error: the bible clearly shows Him coming twice more. This is why multiplied millions of believers are pre-trib believers.

Please please quote verses that support what you say.  Mere claims prove nothing.  The OT prophesied of ONLY 2 advents or comings.  So ALL mention of "the coming of the Lord" in the NT refer specifically to the Second Advent.

Thanks.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You missed those seen seated on thrones judging.

Please show me where they ar said to be raptured.  Even scholars aren't sure who the 24 are.  So how can you be sure?

[FreeGrace]

57 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

They will all have to be attached to this heading, or else it will look like I am trying to ask and answer my own questions. 


So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

SOWN is the death or planting of the 'corruptible/mortal/flesh and blood going back to the earth from whence it came 'body'.  Like when you plant a 'seed'.

OK, I'll take this as an answer to my question of defining what "sown" means.  To be "sown in corruption" obviously refers to our physical birth.  So, being raised in incorruption" would refer to our resurrection body.

[DeighAnn]

5 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

There will be no "rapture".  All believers will be resurrected/changed "when He comes" which is the Second Advent.

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Since these verses are followed by 'He goes to the Father' multiple times, HOW is it possible He is saying the same thing as 

26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

[FreeGrace]

46 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

You said

Only the unsaved will be resurrected, back into their mortal bodies, from hell.  All believers who have died are already in heaven, while their mortal body is in the grave.

my Question 

When the unsaved are resurrected BACK into their mortal body, do you mean THE BODY they had when they died, the flesh and blood body?

[Well, the double click function is missing in action again.  I think you may have missed the context of what I said above.  Obviously all the saved will be resurrected at the Second Advent, from 1 Cor 15:23.  It is at the end of the MK that "only the unsaved will be resurrected", in order to appear before the GWT.   

If so, where is that written?  Or is that a conclusion based on your belief that 1 Corinth 15 only applies to the saved?

[It is obvious from Rev 20:5 - (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

The parenthesis refers to unbelievers, since we know from 1 Cor 15:23 that all believers will be resurrected when Jesus comes at the Second Advent, and that is obvious from Rev 20:1-4.  And the verse ends with "this is the FIRST resurrection", referring to the tribulation martyrs of v.4.]

Would that mean a baby that died at 6 days old will be raised in that body while someone who lived for 975 years will be in that body?

[The Bible doesn't give detail on babies or old people regarding resurrection.]  

Would that mean at the end of the millennium the 975 year old would be 1975 years old??

[The Bible doesn't give us those details.]

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

As for the SAVED in heaven, do they come back for their 'old bodies' also?  Because I don't understand how any 'body' raised or resurrected could be called a 'glorified spiritual body', if it is basically just a 're-creation' of the dead, sinful gone back to dust flesh body that has laid in 'death and corruption', some of them for thousands of years??

Sorry, but since the Bible doesn't give such details, we can only assume, which I don't do.

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The Gentile church of today was a mystery hidden in the Father until Israel as a nation refused to accept the risen Lord as their Messiah.

Israel WASN'T A NATION anymore when Christ walked the earth so it is impossible 'the nation refused'.  Also ONLY the house of JUDAH returned out of captivity to build the temple, the 10 other tribes had been scattered and sifted to the world 200 years before that,   so it WAS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO REFUSE THE LORD as they had become the 'scattered sheep'.  AND there is no GENTILE church as a gentile becomes 'seed of Abraham' when becoming a Christian, not the other way around.  

This is why going to 'THE SCHOOLMASTER' is so important.  It is impossible to understand the end if you have no idea about what is taking place ALREADY when the New Covenant comes into existence.  

Edited December 17, 2022 by DeighAnn

[DeighAnn]

4 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Sorry, but since the Bible doesn't give such details, we can only assume, which I don't do.

You have to be assuming since IT IS WRITTEN 

it is sown, it is raised,

not it is sown, parts of them go, parts of them stay and await the return and then are raised in glory

[FreeGrace]

36 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

What do you do with what follows
"...of those having fallen asleep"? 
Do you think anyone would have thought it would have been from some 'other' place?

[Not sure what you are referring to, but "fallen asleep" is a common figure of speech for physical death.]

And what do you do with 

Romans 11:15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Do you believe that once He 'made the lump holy' that God left them there?  Wouldn't the forgiveness of sin and washing them clean, making the 'lump' holy REQUIRE them to be set free of Hell, since it is for 'the wages of sin' and at that point they had no more sin?  Wasn't that a part of the New Covenant, doing what the old could not?

[Lots of questions!  As to Rom 11:15,16 Paul is stating that born again people are holy (set apart) as well.   

I don't what you mean by "left them there".  God is not static with His children.

And beause Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe, they HAVE BEEN set free from hell.  But that doesn't mean "they had no more sin".  Of course believers still sin.]

Back to Corinth
21  Since for by a man death also by a man resurrection of dead

22  For as indeed in Adam all die so also in Christ all will be made alive

23  Each however in the own order first fruit Christ then those of Christ at the coming of Him

Are you concluding 'the coming of Him' to be the 2nd Advent and the 2nd Advent only?  (I know you don't believe in pre trib and since I don't either, hopefully we can leave that out of the conversation)

Well, finally the double click function works.  I DO conclude that "coming of the Lord" is technical for the Second Advent.  I do so because the OT prophesied of only 2 advents or comings of the Lord.  The first advent was as a baby to become the suffering servant.  The second advent will be as King of kings and Lord of lords.  So ALL comments about "the coming of the Lord" refer to the Second Advent.

36 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Have you considered the possibility that 'the coming of Him' HERE IS speaking of His coming not when the angels will be 'gathering' from heaven and earth but when we die like when He was talking to Peter?

No, I don't consider that possibility.  When Jesus gave the account of a rich man and a poor man named Lazarus in Luke 16 He said that Lazarus was carried by angels to Abraham's bosom.  I have no reason to think that when believers die, they will ascend to heaven all alone.  And Heb 1:14 says that angels are sent to serve the saved.  I am looking forward to be escorted to heaven by angels.  What a marvelous journey.

36 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

John 14
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I think this passage is frequently abused as a passage about a pretrip rapture.  But it isn't.  When Jesus said all this, He hadn't died yet.  So v.2 is about WHEN He will die.  He will go to heaven, where He will prepare a place for His disciples.  

Now, v.3 is a promise that Jesus will come again.  (Second Advent, not pretrib rapture).  To "receive you to Myself" would refer to when ALL believers are gathered together in the clouds in the air, resurrected and glorified.