Josephus, Church Fathers, and Reformers on Daniel's 70 Weeks - A Source List of Quotations

[Jedi4Yahweh]

57 minutes ago, anastasis888 said:

That's probably a good summary of why many today cannot have all 70 weeks of Daniel fulfilled. They believe Christ is coming to reign on earth for 1000 years.

They are Premillennialists. I do not hold that Premillennialism is a Biblical doctrine. I believe it is completely foreign to the New Testament and that Christ is already reigning in his spiritual kingdom.

I do not believe that Jesus Christ will ever step foot on this earth again. We will meet him in the air at his coming. The only kingdom is the kingdom of Heaven. There is no kingdom in earthly Jerusalem. There is only New Jerusalem in Heaven.

I hold Premillennialism to be the single most malicious false eschatology in existence that stands against nearly every concept of the true Gospel. It has taken the kingdom of Heaven, flipped it upside down, and turned it back into the kingdom of this earth.

But now I do understand why Premillennialism cannot afford to say that Daniel's weeks are completed. It would disrupt their eschatological bent.

However, even Josephus a Jew who did not even believe in Jesus as Messiah states openly that he is not in doubt as to Daniel's weeks having been completed.

Sounds like you hold to the full Preterist view that believed all prophecy has already been fulfilled by 70 AD.  You believe there is no literal second coming of Messiah, no literal resurrection for the dead (physical), and that we are currently living in the "millennium" of Messiah in spiritual sense. This is a gnostic view of scriptures which has been rejected by some of the same church fathers you quoted in your OP.  You seem to be doing the same thing that many premillenist do in that they try to lump temple desolation with the 2nd coming.  You are doing the same thing but at 70AD.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Jedi4Yahweh

[anastasis888]

3 minutes ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Sounds like you hold to the full Preterist view that believed all prophecy has all ready been fulfilled by 70 AD.  You believe there is no literal second coming of Messiah, no literal resurrection for the dead (physical), and that we are currently living in the "millennium" of Messiah in spiritual sense. This is a view gnostic view of scriptures which has been rejected by some of the same church fathers you quoted in your OP.  You seem to be doing the same thing that many premillenist do in that they try to lump temple desolation with the 2nd coming.  Your doing the same thing but at 70AD.

No, I'm not a full Preterist.

The only eschatology as pernicious and fallacious as Dispensationalist full futurism is Preterist full pastism.

The Futurist sees all things coming about in the future. The Preterist sees all things coming about in the past. But no one seems to be focusing on what the Spirit is doing in the Present.

I believe Jesus did in fact fulfill Daniel's weeks. But I'm not of those who teach the falsehood that the dead have already been raised and Christ has come in his second coming. They are as misguided in their eschatology as anyone could imagine.

I basically hold to the historicist eschatology off the Reformers and Church Fathers. I think they were pretty much in line with the Scriptural eschatology. 

That's why I provided this quotes list.

Edited November 14, 2022 by anastasis888

[anastasis888]

If anyone wants a clear term of my eschatological position, I am a partial-preterist-partial-futurist-partial-historicist-presentist-pro-heavenly-Zionist.

I hope that clears it up.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

For the record I am not a dispensationalist either.  I have many issues with the dispensationalist theology. 

[anastasis888]

1 minute ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

For the record I am not a dispensationalist either.  I have many issues with the dispensationalist theology. 

Dispensationalism has morphed into an earthly Zionist monster today. That's why it is a truly dangerous departure from the Gospel.

We read in the New Covenant Scriptures that our brothers and sisters were emphatic about not looking to earthly Jerusalem, but heavenly Jerusalem.

I suspect some wolves got hold of the Bible and sought to twist it against the Gospel in order to place the focus back on earth instead of heaven.

That being said, Full Preterism is also mind boggling to me. I simply cannot see how people can come to such conclusions. All I know is that they do.

I'm not worried, though. False teachers and prophets have always arisen and led people astray. I believe that the Spirit will guide us into the Truth. I also believe in being cautious and very careful in such studies. I've had people say that I'm just compromising on believing 'part' of nearly every eschatology. But, the tricky thing is that nearly every eschatology has a part of the truth in it. The deceptive thing about both Dispensationalism and Full Preterism is they both have some half truths.

I shy away from pop eschatology and whatever the commercial thing of the moment may be. I see eschatology as being far more integral to the Christian walk than to so flippantly outsource my responsibility to apprehend the truth to fiction writers of books like Left Behind. I'm thinking Jesus is a little deeper than that.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

13 minutes ago, anastasis888 said:

Dispensationalism has morphed into an earthly Zionist monster today. That's why it is a truly dangerous departure from the Gospel.

We read in the New Covenant Scriptures that our brothers and sisters were emphatic about not looking to earthly Jerusalem, but heavenly Jerusalem.

I suspect some wolves got hold of the Bible and sought to twist it against the Gospel in order to place the focus back on earth instead of heaven.

That being said, Full Preterism is also mind boggling to me. I simply cannot see how people can come to such conclusions. All I know is that they do.

I'm not worried, though. False teachers and prophets have always arisen and led people astray. I believe that the Spirit will guide us into the Truth. I also believe in being cautious and very careful in such studies. I've had people say that I'm just compromising on believing 'part' of nearly every eschatology. But, the tricky thing is that nearly every eschatology has a part of the truth in it. The deceptive thing about both Dispensationalism and Full Preterism is they both have some half truths.

I shy away from pop eschatology and whatever the commercial thing of the moment may be. I see eschatology as being far more integral to the Christian walk than to so flippantly outsource my responsibility to apprehend the truth to fiction writers of books like Left Behind. I'm thinking Jesus is a little deeper than that.

Dispensationalism and Zionism should be separate thread so I will keep this short.  I am not a dispensationalist,  I don't believe God has two separate bodies of people.  We are all called to the same Gospel both Jew and Gentile.  If you are in Messiah we are all of the same family.  God doesn't play favorites, but shows mercy to all that fear him and obey him.  Jewish people don't get free pass because they are born Jewish neither do Gentiles.  We are all called to repentance, obedience, and faith in his Son.

With that said, I also support Zionism.  I do believe part of God's end time plan is to restore Israel to its rightful standing and return them to the Land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. All the prophets speak of this regathering of Israel.  So, I do support the right for Israel to return to the land (some never left).  I do recognize that unbelieving Jews are in a fallen state and are not saved are outside the covenant of God.  Scriptures says they are enemies of the Gospel but for the sake of the theirs fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) they are beloved of God.

[anastasis888]

1 minute ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Dispensationalism and Zionism should be separate thread so I will keep this short.  I am not a dispensationalist,  I don't believe God has two separate bodies of people.  We are all called to the same Gospel both Jew and Gentile.  If you are in Messiah we are all of the same family.  God doesn't play favorites, but shows mercy to all that fear him and obey him.  Jewish people don't get free pass because they are born Jewish neither do Gentiles.  We are all called to repentance, obedience, and faith in his Son.

With that said, I also support Zionism.  I do believe part of God's end time plan is to restore Israel to its rightful standing and return them to the Land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. All the prophets speak of this regathering of Israel.  So, I do support the right for Israel to return to the land (some never left).  I do recognize that unbelieving Jews are in a fallen state and are not saved are outside the covenant of God.  Scriptures says they are enemies of the Gospel but for the sake of the theirs fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) they are beloved of God.

I also support Zionism.

It's just that the Zionism I support is heavenly Zionism, not earthly Zionism.

I do not believe there is any Zion in the New Covenant other than heavenly Zion.

Earthly Zion was left desolate forever. It will never have the Shekinah again.

He is not there anymore.

He is risen.

[anastasis888]

If you are zealous for Zion and want to make the ascent, then Godspeed to you on your quest to reach Zion. Just make sure that you make the ascent by Jacob's Stairway to Heaven. For the Zion you seek is above, not across.

Revelation 14

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on mount Zion, and with him a hundred forty four thousand, having his Father's Name engraved in their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven, as the sound of many waters, and as the sound of great thunder: and I heard the sound of harpers hammering on their harps: 3And they sang as it were a New Song before the Throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: but no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

[anastasis888]

You will need to have a New Song to make the march up to Zion out of Babylonian captivity. You will also need to have the Beatific Name written on your forehead. For the Prophet speaks thus:

Isaiah 51

11Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall make the return, and come with a song unto Zion; everlasting beatification shall be upon their heads: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

Edited November 14, 2022 by anastasis888

[Jedi4Yahweh]

I don't understand how you can overlook prophetic scriptures spoken by all the prophets about the regathering and restoration of Israel in that last days.  Even the disciples of Y'shua asked him before he ascended to heaven:  Will you now restore the Kingdom of Israel???  Y'shua did not correct them but told them that date is not for you to know only the Father.  This is to say there is a future date when Israel will be restored.

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. - Act 1:6-7 KJV

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Here are just few prophetic scriptures about the regathing/restoration of Israel that found all over the book of the prophets.

But Zion said, "The LORD has forsaken me; my Lord has forgotten me." "Can a woman forget her nursing child, that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb? Even these may forget, yet I will not forget you. Behold, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are continually before me. ... "Surely your waste and your desolate places and your devastated land-- surely now you will be too narrow for your inhabitants, and those who swallowed you up will be far away. ... Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I will lift up my hand to the nations, and raise my signal to the peoples; and they shall bring your sons in their arms, and your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders. - Isa 49:14-16, 19, 22 

Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence. And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. - Eze 11:17-20 

For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, [even] I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep [that are] scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country. ... I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up [that which was] broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment. - Eze 34:11-13, 16