The Seventh Trumpet and the Period It Heralds

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, not an echo said:

I agree wholeheartedly!

Oops!  I guess I jumped the gun with my agreement.

Naw.  What I said about agreeing wholeheartedly is so.  Absolutely so.

Sure am looking forward to getting back on track with the subject of this thread.  The scenery has been interesting though.

Hey! We DO agree that the 7th trumpet will mark the midpoint of the week.  I think not many here will agree with even that.

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

Seems like to me that all you are doing on the path you have been going down is shooting yourself in the foot.  What do you think the sun will be like when it becomes "black as sackcloth of hair" (Rev. 6:12)?  What does "a study of the Greek" reveal about the word from which "black" was translated?

STRONG'S CONCORDANCE G3189

Original Word: μέλας

Transliteration: mélas

Phonetic Spelling: mel'-as

[μέλας] apparently a primary word; black

Seems to me that something black in both English and Greek would be really black, huh?  Add to this "as sackcloth of hair" and it's not hard to get a mental picture of what John is trying to convey.

Consider what Peter quoted of Joel on the Day of Pentecost.  In Acts 2 we read...

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable Day of the Lord come:

Seems like to me that what Peter is here quoting of Joel will be fulfilled with the opening of the 6th Seal, don't you think?  I mean, with the sun becoming "black" and the moon becoming "as blood" (Rev. 6:12) and this all happening just before "the Great Day of His Wrath" (Rev. 6:17) and everything?

Seems to me that your efforts to show that Matthew 24:29 is not kin to Revelation 6:12 is akin to what Jesus said about straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

I'm thinking that shooting yourself in the foot has got to hurt.

There is only one thing I know of that naturally causes the moon to appear blood red and the sun to appear black: total eclipses. These are perfect descriptions of total eclipses.  Perhaps you should look on google for a picture of total eclipses.

Once again, how can anyone imagine total darkness for days on end could be equated with total eclipses? 

As I see it, the signs for the DAY are visible signs (the sun and moon both SEEN). On the other hand, for the sign of His coming to Armageddon, the sun, the moon and the stars cannot be seen in the stygian darkness that will take place when God turns out the lights.

Does it not bother you that you are trying to warp the timing of Revelation 19 (after the tribulation) back to the timing of the 6th seal in chapter 6 which is a point in time BEFORE the tribulation? Who then is shooting themselves in the foot?

The 6th seal comes BEFORE the tribulation. They revelation 8 through 16 IS the tribulation (or 70th week). Then chapters 17, 18, and 19 come AFTER the week.

I see trying to morph these two points in time - over 7 years apart - into one point in time is worse that shooting one's self in the foot.

[iamlamad]

On 1/3/2023 at 11:46 PM, not an echo said:

Well thank you!   While I'm not interested in continuing to veer much from the focus of this thread, I see that you are still breaking from the pattern and parallel of Jesus' opening warning (e.g., Matt. 24:4-5) and what John saw with the opening of the 1st Seal (Rev. 6:1-2).  Of course, I must disagree with your deduction on this.  

Also, my position is that the "one fourth" limitation you speak of is tied to the activity of the fourth horsemen alone.  The "them" of Revelation 6:8 is "Death and Hell".  It was to "them" that power was given "over the fourth part of the earth" (geographically) to bring about death directed toward Christians "with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."  This is substantiated by both Jesus' words (e.g., Matt. 24:9) and what John sees with the opening of the 5th Seal.

Because of my recent realization that you had not yet picked up on my position concerning the seals prior to the 6th Seal, I'm thinking that you must have never seen my threads on these.  Here is the title and link to my 1st Seal thread:  The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250674-the-first-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-white-horse/).  There you will also find links to my threads concerning the 2nd Seal thru the 5th Seal.  I just went over there and saw that something odd has happened to my illustration of the Seven Sealed Book.  Some more work to do, but not tonight.

My eyes are blurry...

I don't think you appreciate my position on the timing of the early seals and why I am unmovable in my position. You won't believe any of this, but I will tall it anyway: it happened to ME. 

I was bugged by John weeping and wondered why Jesus chose to include that in John's book, and why it he had to add "much." I bugged God about that for a couple of weeks. Then, it was AS IF Jesus came to my house and pulled up a chair to my study desk and began speaking to me. I have, in other threads, wrote word for word what He said.

In short, He showed me the purpose of chapters 4 & 5 were to show the timing of the first seals. John saw Jesus ascend, and send the Holy Spirit down. He went to the Father and took the book and began right then, around 32 AD, opening the seals. 

Therefore, I instantly dismiss any theory that has the first seal opening in our future.

I also disagree with you here.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. (Hunger, Famine)

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

I think it is very clear: in verse 8 God and John linked DEATH (the 4th seal) with seals 2 and 3, WAR and FAMINE. Both of these causes death. And death is a parallel with pestilence ; example the black death.

Why has God allowed Satan to try and stop the gospel using wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts? John does not cover God's reasons. I can only guess that Satan demanded that right, since he was and still is the god of this world.

[iamlamad]

On 1/3/2023 at 10:53 PM, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

If I am understanding your conclusion, I'm feeling that we are probably in agreement on this.  Or real close.

You begin with the 2nd Seal.  All the things I've remembered you saying in the past are not solid enough evidences to deny that verses 4-5 equate with the 1st Seal.

What these numbers "PROVE" is that these are 3-1/2 year periods, and we know that the seven year period of Daniel's 70th Week is made up of two 3-1/2 year periods.  But, with what you are saying here, in combination with what you have said before (if I have understood you correctly), you believe every mention of these 3-1/2 year equivalents (11:2, 11:3, 12:6, 12:14, & 13:5) pertains only to the last 3-1/2 years.  If what I am saying misrepresents what you have put forth, this is not my intention.

While here, I will just point out again that in Revelation 11:3, John writes of a 3-1/2 year period that irrefutably connects with the verses that follow, through verse 14, which reads, "The second woe is past;  and behold, the third woe cometh quickly."  My position is that the 3-1/2 year time frame spoken of in verses 3-13 is the FIRST HALF of Daniel's 70th Week, which will be over before the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, evidenced by the declaration of verse 14.

You and I both agree that the sounding of the 7th Trumpet marks the beginning of the LAST HALF of Daniel's 70th Week.  My position is that the 3-1/2 year equivalent briefly mentioned in 11:2 concerns this last half, which fits both Luke 21:20-24 and what we find in chapters 12-13, where the 3-1/2 year equivalents are spoken of again (12:6, 14;  13:5).  Seems elementary to me.

What you are saying is like "letting the cat out of the bag" that you really haven't been giving much attention to my position(s).  I am wondering how much of our back and forth may have stemmed from this.  Your statements (in the above quote) are geared against common pre-trib beliefs, not anything I am believing.

My position is that the first four seals were opened as early as late in the first century, and that the four horsemen (Satan's henchmen) have been riding down through the corridors of history ever since, doing just what they have been insatiably bent on doing---to the tune of what Jesus warned of in the opening section of His Olivet Discourse.

I submit that one of the biggest mistakes scholars trying to defend the common pre-trib position have ever made is in their running from the "after" in Matthew 24:29 as they have.  This has resulted in them overlooking and misinterpreting so much Scripture that it is no wonder those who used to accept the common pre-trib view (the bottom line of which I hold to be true) have abandoned it.  Conversely, one of the biggest mistakes scholars trying to defend the common post-trib view have ever made is in their tenacious embracing of the "after" while at the same time never questioning if the "tribulation" Jesus spoke of could be something other than Daniel's 70th Week.

The Revelation holds a primary key to unlocking the truth of what Jesus is in reality speaking of here.  When it is conceded (it should be embraced!) that the event Jesus was speaking of in Matthew 24:29-31 is the event of the opening of the 6th Seal, the prophetic puzzle pieces revealing the timing of the rapture relative to other events begin to easily come together.  Then it can be seen that the "tribulation" Jesus was talking about is connected with the opening of the prior seals and the activity of the four horsemen.  Then it can be seen that what Jesus is speaking about in Matthew 24:29-31-51 (yes, 29-51), concerns the gathering of the Church and a sign appearance that He is going to make at this time, which event intersects between verses 14 and 15, as evidenced further in The Revelation.  This is solid exegesis "rightly dividing" of the Word of Truth.  What scholars have done with all their exegeting is to lose sight of what is right in front of their eyes.  And this has resulted in their obscuring of the truth to the point that those seeking it can hardly find it any more.

The prophetic puzzle pieces of Matthew 24:29-31 (with Mk. 13:24-27 & Lk. 21:25-27) interlock beautifully with John's account of the 6th Seal and show that the gathering will definitely happen pre-Daniel's 70th Week, which in The Revelation is not seen to begin until 11:1-3ff, during the period of the 6th Trumpet (Rev. 9:13-11:14), just after the parenthetical chapter 10, which shows the "little book" of Daniel at this time "open" (Dan. 12:4, 8-10).

You probably could call yourself a pre-wrather. That is what they believe.

[not an echo]

On 12/30/2022 at 4:31 PM, iamlamad said:

On 12/28/2022 at 2:25 PM, not an echo said:

Again, while desirous to remain mindful of the focus of this thread, I would like to make a few comments.  First of all, Jesus speaks at length concerning the very day that the rapture will occur (e.g., Matt. 24:29-51), with some very specific words concerning the nature of it. 

This is only a rumor as there is no proof  - not one word of any hint - that Jesus was talking about Paul's rapture.  Again, when we consider timing, it is impossible. Paul is clear that HIS rapture (1 thes 4& 5) will come before wrath.

Hello iamlamad,

Hopefully I will have time for at least one installment tonight.

It seems that your objection revolves around what you say in your last sentence:  "Paul is clear that HIS rapture (1 thes 4& 5) will come before wrath."  What do you think I am saying differently?  Now really, I'm not asking you this because I'm at a loss for what you are getting at.  Rather, I'm hoping that when you try to answer it, you will see more clearly where I am coming from.  If you don't, then we will probably just continue going in circles.

You say, "This is only a rumor as there is no proof  - not one word of any hint - that Jesus was talking about Paul's rapture."  Why do you say "rumor"?  Jesus said what He said and other scriptures interlock with everything He is saying.  In light of our many discussions, I don't know how you could think that your statement reflects anything more than just continued denial.  JESUS SAID, "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:31) at which time "shall two be in the field;  the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Matt. 24:40), AND PAUL SAYS, "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the Trump of God:  and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with then in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (I Thess. 4:16-17), yet "there is no proof  - not one word of any hint - that Jesus was talking about Paul's rapture."  You are making me think some thoughts that I wish I wasn't having to think.

On 12/30/2022 at 4:31 PM, iamlamad said:

John shows us God's wrath beginning at the 6th seal. John then shows us the 70th week from the first trumpet to the last vial. Therefore, Jesus' words: "after the tribulation of those days" MUST come after the 7th vial that ends the week.

Concerning your opening sentence, I maintain that there is a concept that continues to be obscured by a wording such as this.  What we are actually shown here is that "the great day of God's wrath is come" and the people's concern, "and who shall be able to stand."  When this is fit with the other prophetic pieces of the last days' puzzle, we find that it is the period of the last days' DOTL judgment that begins on this day.  By Paul's words, we know that the Church will be gathered, or "caught up" by the angels at this time, concurrent with the "great sound of a trumpet" and the gathering that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:31.  These prophetic puzzle pieces fit with what happens with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12 thru 7:17).

You make the statement, "John then shows us the 70th Week from the first trumpet to the last vial."  But, rather than seeing real scriptural support for your position, what we actually find is real scriptural support for my position that the 70th Week begins during the period of the 6th Trumpet (Rev. 9:13 thru 11:14), as shown in 11:1-3ff.  Then, not only do you reject this, you put forth that Revelation 11:3-14 is parenthetical and related instead to the 7th Trumpet, which just contributes to a conglomeration.

Concerning your last sentence, what you end up doing by taking this position is to make the "tribulation" (Matt. 24:29) that Jesus is speaking of equal to the vials, which means that the subsequent gathering (Matt. 24:31) that Jesus is speaking of happens after the vials, which doesn't agree with any view, unless there is a post-wrath or post-vials view.

On 12/30/2022 at 4:31 PM, iamlamad said:

I see no way we can agree on anything here.

I'm inclined to agree.

[not an echo]

On 1/4/2023 at 5:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

On 11/17/2022 at 9:09 PM, not an echo said:

Near the closing of Revelation chapter 11, we find John's account of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet and a brief overview of what this period entails.  Evidences that I will be showing support that the sounding of the 7th Trumpet will mark the beginning of the last 3-1/2 years of Daniel's 70th Week, but also, that it heralds the period in which complete closure for this world will occur.  In other words, what the 7th Trumpet heralds is huge---very huge!  Let's begin with a look at the brief overview we are given of this period, again, from Revelation 11 (and note the bold)...

The 7th Trump sounds and it is the actual 3rd Woe, we know this because scriptures tell us this.

Rev. 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

So, the first four trumps are all one asteroid imho, then trumps 1 and 2 are seen in Rev. 9, we are then given the details of woe #2 in Rev. 9, but we also see the Two-witnesses are killed during the 2nd woe. Likewise, in Rev. 11 we are told the 3rd woe comes quickly, and told the 7th trump sounds, but we do not get the details of the 3rd woe, and thats because the details are in Rev. 16 the 3rd woe are (and can only be according to Rev. 8:13) the 7 Vials. Woe, woe, woe 5th Trump = woe #1, 6th trump = woe #2 and the 7th trump will = woe #3. 

The 7th Trump in Rev. 11 is showing who prayed down ever plague, the Two-witnesses, those plagues start in Rev. 8 with the first trump. The 7th Trump indeed ends it all, but the coming Two-witnesses are dead by then, thats why we only get a declaration that the 7th trump brings VICTORY, we do not get the details of what ensues.  

Trump 7 in Revelation 11, the Wine-press of God's Wrath in Rev. 14:17-20, then Babylon the Great getting the wine-press of God's Wrath in Rev. 16:19, and the Rev. 19:17-19 Marriage Supper (Armageddon) are all four the exact same event !!

The 7th Trump will happen 75 days before Jesus returns, we know this because the Two-witnesses die 75 days before the Beast dies, we know this because they are the 1335 Blessing, thus they show up 75 days before the Beast conquers Israel at the 1260 event. Rev. 8 starts at the 1260, the 7 Trumps thus run in order. The 7 Trumps are all of God's Wrath, see Rev. 10s 7 Thunders, same thing, just in prose. Rev. 12, 13, 17 and 18 also start at the 1260 event just like Rev. 8, but Rev. 8, 9 and 16 are in order. Rev. 11 is the Two-witnesses ministry, which starts 75 days before Rev. 8 and ends 75 days before the Beast dies.

I give you guys the perfect order, and you never se it, when you all get to heaven you are going have this WOW MOMENT, and say I spent all that time trying to figure this out when Rev. Man was telling me the truth.

P.S. The Last Trump has nothing to do with a Rev. trump, besides Rev. 4:1 where Jesus sounds as a Trump when he tells John to come up here. The Last Trump is speaking to how the Last Trump in the Feast of Trumps ALWAYS ENDED the Harvest every year. The Harvest = the Church Age.

Jesus must fulfill all 7 Feasts, he is our 1.) Passover, he was without sin 2.) Unleavened. He was the 3.) First-fruits of death. 

Jesus is our High Priest, we are his body, he is thus fulfilling the 4.) Great Harvest or Feast of weeks/Pentecost. Jesus will blow the 5.) Last Trump and thus fulfill the Feast of Trumps. Then after the Church is in Heaven at the Pre Trib Rapture Israel will 6.) Atone and thus Jesus fulfills the Feast of Atonement and lastly Jesus fulfills the 7.) Feast of Tabernacles via his 1000 year reign, to TABERNACLE simply means to dwell with God, and Israel will dwell with Jesus/God. 

Now, here is a key to what Jesus really meant by no man  will know the day nor the hour except the Father. He was referring to the Last Trump. So, Israel were on a Lunar calendar right? (God time so to speak) So, the Harvest always ended on the New Year ! Thus it took a New Moon every year for the New Year to kick off via this Lunar timeclock they were on. And the exact day nor hour of the new moon could never be known, they could of course approximate it withing a couple of days and be on the lookout. So, the leaders sent two witnesses up into the mountains to spy out just when the new moon came in, then when they got word the new moon was in they started blowing the trumps. The blew the Shofar in 9 sets of 11 or 99 times, then on the LAST TRUMP it blew longer and louder than the other 99 and OFICALLY ENDED the Summer Harvest (think Church Age). 

The Last Trump is not a Revelation Trumpet brother.

Hello Revelation Man,

I will continue to consider what you say.  Of your last statement, it seems that you have not yet realized how wholeheartedly I agree with this, as my thread titled, Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet? (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/264038-is-the-trump-of-god-the-seventh-trumpet/) will certainly show.  Of course, my position is that the "Last Trump" (I Cor. 15:52) that Paul speaks of is one and the same as the "Trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16) of which he speaks.

In reflection over some things I have remembered you saying, I don't recall you ever indicating whether you believe that the "trumpet talking with me" that John speaks of in Revelation 4:1 is the Last Trump/Trump of God---which thing I would certainly disagree with.  My understanding is that you regard this (the Rev. 4:1 trumpet) as representing the trumpet that will be sounded at the time of the rapture.  I just don't remember you going as far as to say it is the Last Trump/Trump of God---so I am curious.

Further, my position is that the "great sound of a trumpet" that Jesus speaks of at the time of the event He describes in Matthew 24:29-31 is also the Last Trump/Trump of God.  Moreover, what He is describing here dovetails with the event of the opening of the 6th Seal, at which time He will also make the "sign" appearance He speaks of (Matt. 24:30/Rev. 6:15-16).  The assembling of these and other prophetic puzzle pieces reveals that the rapture/gathering happens at this same time as well (e.g., Matt. 24:31 & I Thess. 4:16-5:3).  Unsurprisingly, we see the "great multitude" associated with this gathering (another of the prophetic puzzle pieces) in the interlude between the opening of the 6th and 7th seals (Rev. 7:9-17).  If my memory is serving me correctly, you believe as I do that this great multitude is the Church.  I think you are just not connecting the dots or assembling the prophetic puzzle pieces as I am.

If I have misrepresented anything concerning your position, this has not been my intention.

[not an echo]

On 1/5/2023 at 4:12 PM, iamlamad said:

On 1/5/2023 at 12:00 AM, not an echo said:

I agree wholeheartedly!

Oops!  I guess I jumped the gun with my agreement.

Naw.  What I said about agreeing wholeheartedly is so.  Absolutely so.

Sure am looking forward to getting back on track with the subject of this thread.  The scenery has been interesting though.

Hey! We DO agree that the 7th trumpet will mark the midpoint of the week.  I think not many here will agree with even that.

When you come to realize that Revelation 11:3-14 is of the first half of the week---something unquestionably apparent to me---we will be in a little further agreement.

[Revelation Man]

On 1/8/2023 at 10:24 PM, not an echo said:

Of course, my position is that the "Last Trump" (I Cor. 15:52) that Paul speaks of is one and the same as the "Trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16) of which he speaks.

In reflection over some things I have remembered you saying, I don't recall you ever indicating whether you believe that the "trumpet talking with me" that John speaks of in Revelation 4:1 is the Last Trump/Trump of God---which thing I would certainly disagree with.  My understanding is that you regard this (the Rev. 4:1 trumpet) as representing the trumpet that will be sounded at the time of the rapture.  I just don't remember you going as far as to say it is the Last Trump/Trump of God---so I am curious.

Of course it is the Last Trump which ends the Harvest. We know its Jesus by reading Rev. chapter 1. Its not the 7th Trump of Revelation that is a judgment Trump. Jesus calls us home, why do you think John is saying he sounds as a Trump? The Last Trump ends the Harvest. We are Harvesting souls for God, Jesus is our high priest, thus he's the head, we are the body. 

God gives us these deep patterns for a reason. We knowing the word can dig out these clues, the unbelieving world are in the dark, we are in the light. The Pharisees couldn't see Jesus in the scriptures even though it was there, it did not say Jesus will be born in Bethlehem ay 5:43 AM on such and such a day. They couldn't see the suffering Messiah portrait because their hearts desired the conquering King portrait, thus they became blinded by tunnel vision.

On 1/8/2023 at 10:24 PM, not an echo said:

Further, my position is that the "great sound of a trumpet" that Jesus speaks of at the time of the event He describes in Matthew 24:29-31 is also the Last Trump/Trump of God. 

That is not the Rapture, Jesus returns to save the Jewish people and set up his Kingdom Age. A hint at the Rapture can be seen in Matt. 24:36-51, as in the days of Noah, they were marrying, eating, basically partying and acting normal, then the flood came an took them all away. So, after God's Wrath kills billions of people, and they hide from God in their caves and beg to be killed, do you think they will all be acting normal at Jesus' Second Coming (which means 2nd Advent, Jesus has traveled to this earth multiple times, probably in the 1000s or 10.000, or more. 

The one is TAKEN and one is LEFT matches up with the 5 virgins missing the wedding call. Half of all Christendom are fake Christians, who think God is stupid I guess, they love sin  more than God, but expect to be Raptured. 

Again, Israel is not a part of the Harvest (Church Age per se), they ATONE in Zechariah 13:8-9 or repent, just before the DOTL comes in Zech. 14:1-2. This time of Atonement can only come AFTER the Harvest Ends and AFTER the Feast of Trumps. And the Feast of Tabernacles can only come AFTER the Feast of Atonement. The 70th week prophecy spells it all out Israel has to atone before the 70th week can end !! They can not ATONE unless the Summer Harvest has ended, we the Church are the Summer Harvest. That is why the Time of the Gentiles (Church Age) happens during the "Summer" the Jews calling brought forth the Messiah and his Sacrifice via the Spring Feasts (1. Passover 2.) Unleavened Bread 3.) First-fruits and will bring forth the Fall Feasts which births the Kingdom Age via the 5.) Feast of Trumps 6.) Feast of Atonement and 7.) The Feast of Tabernacles. Only the Harvest is all alone on the calendar, just like the Church Age via the Time of the Gentiles is also. 

On 1/8/2023 at 10:24 PM, not an echo said:

Moreover, what He is describing here dovetails with the event of the opening of the 6th Seal, at which time He will also make the "sign" appearance He speaks of (Matt. 24:30/Rev. 6:15-16)

The Seals DO NOTHING, they are Jesus Prophesying amidst the Church in Heaven just BEFORE the 1260 Wrath of God falls, and as he opens each seal he Prophesies what will be coming over the next 42 months. Seals 1-5 are all about the Anti-Christs soon to come rule as the Beast. He will not be allowed to go forth conquering until God's Wrath falls via Trumps 1-4, which is one event, an Asteroid (IMHO) named Apophis. Thus all 5 Seals happen over the same 42 month period of his rule. 1.) He conquers 2.) Takes away Peace. 3.)His rule brings Famine 4.) Sickness/Death follow his 42 month tyrannical rule 5.) He Martyrs those of God who repent during the 70th week, for 42 months. All 5 of these events cover 42 months. So, Jesus is FORETELLING what this Beasts rule will bring forth over 42 months when God's Wrath falls and he allowed to go forth conquering.

The 6th Seal is Jesus FORETELLING of God's soon to come Wrath on mankind, he tells how the sun and moon will not give its full light, just like Joel 2:31 FORETELLS this also. Then in Trump #4 we see this COME TO PASS !! The Asteroid causes all of this !! But ONLY AFTER the 7th Seal is opened can the Judgment Scroll be read from. The reason there is silence in Heaven is there in no joy in having to destroy billions of people because of their wicked hearts. Thus heaven has a heavy heart, but justice has to be brought to pass. The Moon goes dark in the MIDDLE of the Week, not at the end per se. You confuse Matt. 24:30, let me show you why its actually 1260 days AFTER Matt. 24:29.

Remember, this is not a play by play like Revelation is of the end times, Jesus knew that was coming later, he's just giving his Disciples a synopsis of end time events, not a spelled out playbook of every detail in the end times. 

Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation(WHEN?  As soon as God's Wrath falls we see what? ) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light (We see the Sun & Moons light dim by 1/3 as Rev. 8 says), and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then (1260 days later) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

You just ASSUME the IMMEDIATELY above is speaking about his Return, IT IS NOT !! It is speaking about the Sun & Moon going dark.........AND THEN..........is later on Zech. 14:1-4 PROVES this.

We see the exact same lingo here in Zechariah 14, just after Israel REPENTS in Zech. 13:8-9. 

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

{{{ The ABOVE can only be the 1260 Middle of the week when the Anti-Christ goes forth conquering, this can not be the VEEY END because Israel/Jerusalem is ruled by the Anti-Christ for 42 months correct? But watch the very next verse, we have another 1260 day JUMP FORWARD in events !! Prophecy is like that brother. }}}

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

So, just like Zechariah 14:2 JUMPS 1260 days by saying THEN...... Matt. 24:30 does the exact same thing, it says THEN.....and we see Jesus in the picture !! If they detailed out every minutia of the future 2000 to 2500 years in the future you would have gotten chapters that look like the book "War and Peace". You MISS what happens IMMEDIATELY AFTER the troubles start, the Sun and moon goes dim by 1/3. NOW go look in Rev. 8, it shows this. Trump #1 begins God's Wrath, its fire coming in of a breaking apart Asteroid (Apophis), then in Trump #2 we see THE IMPACT. Then in Trump #3 we see the Poisonous FALLOUT (Wormwood). Then IMMADIATELY AFTER (the Wrath/Fires/Impact/Poisons) we see the Sun and Moon go Dark in Trump #4 go read it. BUT......Jesus only returns after Woe #1 which lasts for 5 months by itself, Woe #2 and Woe #3 which brings us 7 Vials, and Jesus shows up at Vial #7 of course. You conflate the scriptures, Satan  sneaks in men to put these ideas forth, passes them around, but men like me reprove these ideas that came from  OTHER MEN. I heard them in the 80s, no doubt they had been around long before that. I have followed stuff and understood I was in error, but we have to overcome this stuff day by day. 

On 1/8/2023 at 10:24 PM, not an echo said:

Unsurprisingly, we see the "great multitude" associated with this gathering (another of the prophetic puzzle pieces) in the interlude between the opening of the 6th and 7th seals (Rev. 7:9-17).  If my memory is serving me correctly, you believe as I do that this great multitude is the Church.  I think you are just not connecting the dots or assembling the prophetic puzzle pieces as I am.

Yes, it is the Pre Trib Raptured Church.

God Bless my friend, gotta run. REMEMBER, I am not being a party pooper, just trying to get you to think out of the box like Jesus did. (of course he was God the Redeemer, but he wanted his disciples to NOT THINK like the conformist Pharisees. )

Edited January 11, 2023 by Revelation Man

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

When you come to realize that Revelation 11:3-14 is of the first half of the week---something unquestionably apparent to me---we will be in a little further agreement.

It takes a wild imagination to imaging John would write two verses (11:1-2) for the last half of the week, then in the very next verse write the first half of the week.

I remind you of the words Jesus spoke to me:

"Every time I mentioned an event that would go from the midpoint of the week to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time."

Therefore the day will never come that I will agree with your above point.

[iamlamad]

On 1/7/2023 at 9:54 PM, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

Hopefully I will have time for at least one installment tonight.

It seems that your objection revolves around what you say in your last sentence:  "Paul is clear that HIS rapture (1 thes 4& 5) will come before wrath."  What do you think I am saying differently?  Now really, I'm not asking you this because I'm at a loss for what you are getting at.  Rather, I'm hoping that when you try to answer it, you will see more clearly where I am coming from.  If you don't, then we will probably just continue going in circles.

I think we both agree that the rapture will come just before the start of God's wrath. Our difference is, where on an end time timeline you imagine God's wrath beginning, and where on that same timeline you believe the 70th week begins.

I see John has a very clear timeline of 7 seals, then 7 trumpets, and finally 7 vials. These are written very chronologically from Revelation chapter 6 to chapter 16.

On this timeline, the 70th week officially will begin at the 7th seal where the book gets opened. I believe the 70th week is what is written inside the book. God marked the 70th week with 7's: the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet (midpoint)  and the 7th vial. I think you agree with much of this.

So where on this same timeline does God get angry and begin the Day of His wrath? That would be at the 6th seal, where John wrote, "the day of His wrath is come."

How anyone can move the start of wrath in their imagination to somewhere in the middle of chapters 11 to 16 (the last half of the week) simply amazes me. The 6th seal absolutely cannot be moved. It must remain between seals 5 and 7, and before any part of the 70th week.

Can you explain how you can pull the start of God's wrath from where John and the Holy Spirit placed it - at the 6th seal which will be opened before any part of the 70th week - to somewhere in the last half of the week?

This is like asking why you are post-trib pre-wrath rather than pre-trib.