I never fully bought into my former Catholic "faith"...

[JohnD]

4 hours ago, ayin jade said:

I would love to discuss (civilly of course) what rcc stuff the protestants brought with them. In pm if you dont wish to in public.

Public debate is fine, I've nothing to hide.

To begin with:

The Apostle's Creed for one. "I believe in God the Father Creator of heaven and Earth..."

God the Son (preincarnate) is the sole Creator of all things created in the beginning (John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 / Hebrews 1:2 / Isaiah 44:24):

Isaiah 44:24 (KJV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

• Jesus is YHVH / the LORD / Yahweh / Jehovah as he claimed to be with every I AM statement (especially John 8:58-59 cross reference with Exodus 3:13-15)
• Jesus is the Redeemer. The Father is not the Redeemer. The Father is the one to whom the redemption price is paid (Isaiah 53:10)
• The only thing the Father created is the body / humanity of the Son (John 1:14 / Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5)
• Compare Isaiah 44:24 with Genesis 1:1

This bolsters the Trinity doctrine BTW by distinguishing between the Persons in the Godhead and their unique roles in creation / ministry.

Protestants are rarely taught these things if ever, and many of the older Protestant denominations quote the Apostle's Creed liturgically every Sunday. 

[JohnD]

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The Bible is incorrectly divided in Roman Catholicism and Protestantism:

Hebrews 9:16–17 (KJV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The division between Old and New Testaments is NOT between Malachi 4 and Matthew 1, but when Jesus died on the cross:

• Matthew 27:50
• Mark 15:37
• Luke 23:46
• John 19:30

The Gospels are not New Testament only but New and Old as the bridge between the two covenants.

Nit picking? Hardly.

Matthew 6:12–15 (KJV)
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

That's OLD Covenant OLD Testament Law of Moses. NOT New Testament New Covenant Grace.

That Grace is:

John 3:16–18 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ephesians 2:8–10 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 6:29 (KJV)
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 16:27 (KJV)
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Nothing said about forgiving others, gouging out eyes to avoid hell, as under the Old Covenant (Matthew 5:29-30).

In fact the Sermon on the Mount was a divine commentary on the Law of Moses "It is said that, but I say..." was already "said" by Jesus' time.

Not rightly diving the Word of truth is also a highway of legalism into Grace. A means to burden God's Christian believers with Old Covenant Law. The Apostle Paul was livid about such practices (by what some call Judaizers). 

_______________________

Footnote:

I am not faulting the Protestant movement with existing but rather not Reforming nearly enough from the satanic infiltration of the Church through the Roman Empire take over that resulted in the Roman Catholic Church. Once the Roman Catholics realized there was  not that much difference in Protestantism, they relented from the blood feud / persecution of Protestants.

[JohnD]

Another means to dumb down the Body Christian is to wrong divide believers in unbiblical divisions; specifically clergy / laity.

• It weakens the intended exponential outreach of the Gospel
• It limits the number of leaders placing the power in fewer hands for Satan to influence / assuage through persecution
• It exerts control over more people with fewer leaders
• It dumbs down the ministry / expectation for and of the individual believer

We are all priests of God in Christ (Revelation 1:6  Revelation 5:10 /  1 Peter 2:3-9).

The New Covenant is the realization of Exodus 19:6 which was tragically denied the LORD in Exodus 32 when not only did the people commit debauchery and worship a calf idol, but they were about to turn tail and return to Egypt (Numbers 14:3-4) and undo everything the LORD had done up to that point.  God wanted to destroy the entire nation and start over again with Moses. But Moses pleaded for Israel and the LORD relented. Still as many as 7000 people were slaughtered that day by the only people who came to the LORD's (i.e. Moses') side his own tribe the Levites. This is how they were chosen as the priestly tribe and the rest were (so to speak) laity. 

There is virtually no difference in the Protestant denominations and the Roman Catholic Church along the lines of the division of clergy and laity.

It is a means of control by man (therefore the devil).

[JohnD]

John 16:13 (KJV)
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The Roman Catholic Church and Protestant Movement by extension have removed that power and office from the Holy Spirit to the traditions of men (which Jesus himself warned about in Mark 7:13 and Mark 7:7) would nullify the Word of God and make even the worship of him in vain. The seminaries and commentaries and denominational platforms of Protestantism rival the Roman Catholic Papacy, Catechisms, Papal Bulls, etc. 

No wonder there is so much division in biblical interpretation.

Few are following the biblical mandate that the Holy Spirit who wrote the Bible through the writing prophets is the Sole Interpreter of scripture (2 Peter 1:20-21)

which we are supposed to know first of all.

The formula is the Holy Spirit interprets (2 Peter 1:20-21)

we verify it's him (1 John 4:1 / 1 Thessalonians 5:21)

by the scriptures (Acts 17:11)

then we have Truth (God's side of the story).

Not conflict or contradiction or confusion or

these people believe this and those people believe that or

who the heck knows? Pay your nickel and make your own choice...      

[JohnD]

I believe I've given enough starting points for a lively but friendly debate. 

Be blessed.

[JohnD]

5 hours ago, Roymond said:

Actually the Orthodox claim is correct:  Alexandria and Antioch and Jerusalem had bishops before Rome ever did, and for centuries Rome was the poor brother whose only power was the respect of others for Peter and Paul who were martyred there.  Rome would love for us to believe it encompassed all of Christendom, but that didn't even get close to being the reality until the sixth century and later -- and the Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox never accepted papal monarchy, no matter what claims Rome continues to make.

The late Walter Martin (founder of Christian Research Institute and was the original Bible Answer Man radio broadcaster) taught that Roman Catholicism actually began in the 10th Century CE

[Waggles]

On 11/24/2022 at 1:28 PM, Not of the World said:

...and I have come to realize that the RCC is full of zealots that evangelize for the church on numerous social media platforms.  In my experience there is no reasoning with them.  The RCC is absolutely "of the world" and I can't help but wonder if they will play a significant role in accepting and promoting the antiChrist.  

Rev 18:2  And he cried with a mighty voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and is become a habitation of demons, and prison of every unclean spirit, and prison of every unclean and hateful bird. 
18:3  For by the wine of the wrath of her fornication all the nations are fallen, and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth waxed rich by the power of her luxury. 
18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues: 
18:5  for her sins are heaped up even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

And I did way back in late 1996

I believed the full gospel of salvation and submitted to the word of God

Water baptized by full immersion and baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues

Then I was instantly set free from my sins and my many addictions > a new creation.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Waggles

[Not of the World]

44 minutes ago, Waggles said:

18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues: 

What is the significance of John referring to Babylon the Great as "her"?  

[Waggles]

4 hours ago, Not of the World said:

What is the significance of John referring to Babylon the Great as "her"?  

In the OT the children of Israel were betrothed to YHVH - Israel the wife and God her husband.

In the NT "The Church" is a her because she is regarded as a bride to the bridegroom [Jesus].

Rev 17:3  And he carried me away in Spirit into a wilderness: and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet beast, full of names of blasphemy, he having seven heads and ten horns. 
4  And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and gilded with gold and precious stone and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations, and the unclean things of her fornication, 
5  and upon her forehead a name written, a mystery, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 
6  And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And when I saw her, I wondered with a great wonder.

Rev 17:9  Here is the mind that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, where the woman sitteth on them:

Rev 17:18  And the woman whom thou sawest is the great city, which hath kingship over the kings of the earth.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Waggles

[Not of the World]

9 minutes ago, Waggles said:

Rev 17:9  Here is the mind that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, where the woman sitteth on them:

Thank you.

I've heard some say that that the 7 mountains is referring to Rome.  Is it possible that the 7 mountains is referring to the 7 continents?