If God created the souls of birthed babies, why they are under the bondage of sins ?

[Your closest friendnt]

23 hours ago, Roymond said:

"Purgatory" comes from "purgation" which means "being purged" -- which is what Paul describes here.

And even Rome admits that thinking of it as a place rather than a process/event, and that someone paying money will ease the suffering, is an aberration.  In fact as I recall, they maintain that only named Saints won't go through purging... and not even all of them.

There was this woman who lost her husband and she had her reasons to be quite uneasy about his where abouts so did what was the customs of the RCC but still was uneasy about him and she started asking  various ministers to pray for her husband...

But she still was uneasy about him...some minister accommodated her and some they did not because was not what their doctrine does..

One day she asked a minister to pray for her dead husband...the minister later said that even thought they do not pray for the dead he had the word of the Holy Spirit telling him ...give her what she is asking you...

The minister said he prayed for her husband in  away that he should pray to satisfaction of what this lady was asking him and she thank him and went away...just after a few weeks the Lady came back to tell him that since the time he had prayed for her husband all her uneasiness and anxiety about her husband was gone and she had stopped asking prayers for him...and she wanted to know why?...the minister explained to her that in his denomination they do not pray for the dead...but because she was there to asked him to pray for her husband  he complied with her request because he was asked by the Holy Spirit to do what she was asking him and not to let her go unless he prayed for her husband because that what she was asking him... but when he prayed for her husband he prayed believing that her husband was with Jesus...because that's how the Holy Spirit had show him but had also asked him to pray for her husband because the lady that's what she wanted 

Then only then the minister explained to her what he believed from the scriptures that we are saved because of Jesus Christ..who died on the Cross for our sins....

**There is no purgatory and if some believers need to be educated in what we believe and also need to be rehabilitated in their minds after they died...that time after their death they will be taught a lot of things while in Heaven...the need for further education about Jesus Christ and other matter it takes place...for everyone in Heaven but our sins are put away and are not counted against us who believe because of Jesus Christ forgiveness to us who believe in him. 

Paul made it simple when he said that even though our works may condemned us it is our faith in Jesus Christ that save us...

Edited March 2, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[chesed]

23 hours ago, Roymond said:

Purgatory" comes from "purgation" which means "being purged" -- which is what Paul describes here.

Then what does Jesus mean here?...

Joh 5:24  "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

 

 

 

[chesed]

23 hours ago, Roymond said:

I can't claim responsibility; the comment about predestination came from a graduate course in the non-Pauline epistles.

You sure it wasn't an anti-Pauline graduate course?

23 hours ago, Roymond said:

And even Rome admits that thinking of it as a place rather than a process/event, and that someone paying money will ease the suffering, is an aberration.  In fact as I recall, they maintain that only named Saints won't go through purging... and not even all of them.

Rome is well known for it's 'chameleon behavior'. Like trying to nail Jello to a wall. lol

[Your closest friendnt]

@chesed, 

This is what happens when the doctrine is that without the church and the Priests "you" can do nothing.. 

They did not take as an example what God did...when he torn Twain the veil in the Temple...

He took the power off the hands of the Priests.

They were not needed anymore their duty came to a holt when they crucified Jesus...

Why am I saying this...because he RCC church is teaching that without the church and the clergy the believer can do nothing...

The church is what the believer needs...

Without the intervention of the church the people cannot be sanctified....from the moment one is born the church takes over...year after year till one dies...no one is lost...the purgatory and the prayers for the disease bring about the decide result the exit from the purgatory...

No one is lost unless the bishop say so...

[Your closest friendnt]

32 minutes ago, chesed said:

Then what does Jesus mean here?...

Joh 5:24  "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

 

 

 

This is what is the heart of the Gospel....

This is why Jesus Christ said "O death where is your sting",

In Jesus Christ when the believer sins he remains in the Life of Jesus Christ...to be more precise he remains "in the eternal Life of Jesus Christ "...because that what Jesus Christ has after his obedient death on the Cross...the eternal Life...he was put on the Cross having the Life of God and the moment he died he found himself in the Eternal Life...

The believer is in the Eternal Life of Jesus Christ...

When he sins Death cannot touch him....the believer sins but if "you" cheque him out "you will not find on him  the sting of Death....

In Jesus Christ "O' Death where is your sting on the believer who has sin? 

This is why we do not need prayers for a believer who dies...because he dies cloth with Imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ...

His own righteousness was relevant while he lived ..and it was very important while he lived...when he dies he dies with Jesus Christ righteousness....this is very important to know because Death cannot take anyone who believes in Jesus Christ...

That's why Jesus said, those who sin let them sin..."you look after your own self and do not follow what someone else does...you give account for your self and he will give account for himself....

Not necessarily to Jesus but to other people around him who have their own rules and the state has it's own rules...we get away with a lot  ....because this why we are in the New Covenant and not in the Old...

 

[chesed]

14 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

@chesed, 

This is what happens when the doctrine is that without the church and the Priests "you" can do nothing.. 

They did not take as an example what God did...when he torn Twain the veil in the Temple...

He took the power off the hands of the Priests.

They were not needed anymore their duty came to a holt when they crucified Jesus...

Why am I saying this...because he RCC church is teaching that without the church and the clergy the believer can do nothing...

The church is what the believer needs...

Without the intervention of the church the people cannot be sanctified....from the moment one is born the church takes over...year after year till one dies...no one is lost...the purgatory and the prayers for the disease bring about the decide result the exit from the purgatory...

No one is lost unless the bishop say so...

Agreed. Sacerdotal intermediaries isn’t my thing either.

[chesed]

14 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This is what is the heart of the Gospel....

This is why Jesus Christ said "O death where is your sting",

In Jesus Christ when the believer sins he remains in the Life of Jesus Christ...to be more precise he remains "in the eternal Life of Jesus Christ "...because that what Jesus Christ has after his obedient death on the Cross...the eternal Life...he was put on the Cross having the Life of God and the moment he died he found himself in the Eternal Life...

The believer is in the Eternal Life of Jesus Christ...

When he sins Death cannot touch him....the believer sins but if "you" cheque him out "you will not find on him  the sting of Death....

In Jesus Christ "O' Death where is your sting on the believer who has sin? 

This is why we do not need prayers for a believer who dies...because he dies cloth with Imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ...

His own righteousness was relevant while he lived ..and it was very important while he lived...when he dies he dies with Jesus Christ righteousness....this is very important to know because Death cannot take anyone who believes in Jesus Christ...

That's why Jesus said, those who sin let them sin..."you look after your own self and do not follow what someone else does...you give account for your self and he will give account for himself....

Not necessarily to Jesus but to other people around him who have their own rules and the state has it's own rules...we get away with a lot  ....because this why we are in the New Covenant and not in the Old...

 

This reminds me of...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V044eE4Nw_o

[Roymond]

On 2/28/2023 at 9:56 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

**There is no purgatory and if some believers need to be educated in what we believe and also need to be rehabilitated in their minds after they died

"Purgatory" comes from "purgation" which means "being purged" -- which is what Paul describes here.

You're essentially saying that Paul was wrong, because he explicitly talks about being purged as through fire.

[Roymond]

On 3/1/2023 at 8:58 PM, chesed said:

Then what does Jesus mean here?...

Joh 5:24  "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

 

Well he certainly isn't contradicting Paul.  So let's look at that verse:

Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι ὁ τὸν λόγον μου ἀκούων καὶ πιστεύων τῷ πέμψαντί με ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ εἰς κρίσιν οὐκ ἔρχεται, ἀλλὰ μεταβέβηκεν ἐκ τοῦ θανάτου εἰς τὴν ζωήν.

ἔρχεται εἰς κρίσιν (EHR-khe-tie ace KRI-sin) are the important words here.  The phrase is an idiom that means "to come into a sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment".  That doesn't contradict Paul because the purging Paul writes about isn't about this sentence "in court", it's about being purged for entry into heaven.  That's not a judgment or a punishment, it's an act of grace to clean us from whatever isn't suitable for heaven.

Arguing against Paul's teaching here is equivalent to saying that Heaven is a "come as you are" party where it doesn't matter what you're wearing or even if you've had a bath recently, something that the parable of the women with the lamps tells us isn't so.

[Roymond]

On 3/1/2023 at 9:07 PM, chesed said:

You sure it wasn't an anti-Pauline graduate course?

Huh?  How can a teaching from Paul be anti-Pauline?

On 3/1/2023 at 9:07 PM, chesed said:

Rome is well known for it's 'chameleon behavior'. Like trying to nail Jello to a wall. lol

Rome knows what it's teaching, so when an assertion is made about what they teach, they're the authority.  And no, Rome is hardly known for "chameleon behavior" when it comes to theology, rather they're stubborn and more than a bit arrogant.