Man was in Pangaea

[BeyondET]

Just now, dad2 said:

The issue discussed was about light from the far universe and how much time was involved in getting here etc. Not your mental concept of what other poster's hearts were like

Not other posters just one out 8 billion or so.

[dad2]

Just now, BeyondET said:

Not other posters just one out 8 billion or so.

Blabbering gibberish then. OK. Maybe address the issues here.

[BeyondET]

1 minute ago, dad2 said:

What are you talking about? Why bring up the sun's position then??

You got quite the diversion tactics.

[BeyondET]

Just now, dad2 said:

Blabbering gibberish then. OK. Maybe address the issues here.

Ok

[dad2]

2 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

You got quite the diversion tactics.

Tell us what you think is being diverted from?

[BeyondET]

1 minute ago, dad2 said:

Tell us what you think is being diverted from?

How many are there of you?

[dad2]

13 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

How many are there of you?

So you now want to allude to other posters being possessed when your arguments fail. Not honest or courageous or interesting.

 To be clear then, on the issue of creation as per Genesis, do you believe it or not? From your words so far, it seems you have tried to cast doubt on a literal creation by God of all things. Be clear.

[RdJ]

6 hours ago, dad2 said:

No. The fishbowl is a term here for the whole solar system and area.

Fish bowl?

Lately I had a dream. I saw an old clock in an upside down bucket, which was taken off and then the time started to tick. 

https://www.thetorah.com/article/my-encounter-with-the-firmament

The Torah describes God’s fashioning the firmament (רקיע) on the second day of creation. This piece of the universe, however, doesn’t actually exist—a problem obfuscated in my yeshiva education.

https://assets-global.website-files.com/5b8fd783bee52c8fb59b1fac/5f870cc49713c649d0c00e79_Firmament.jpeg

A fish-eye view of the Red sea in Israel, early spring.

Of all the vexing problems modern cosmology poses for the first chapter of Genesis, such as the insufficient biblical timeline of 6 days (as opposed to billions of years) until the appearance of humans, or vegetative bloom before the sun and photosynthesis, the most acute for me is God’s creation of the firmament (רקיע; rakia) on the second day.

If you are unfamiliar with the firmament, then imagine for a moment the horizon, where the earth appears to meet with the sky. Only try and picture it as a connecting point between two solids: a flat plate like earth, and a rigid dome like an upside down bowl that vaults it, blue as ocean, from the vast stores of water it contains. This is what the Bible is describing when it refers to הָרָקִיעַ, traditionally rendered in English Bibles as “the firmament” (from the Latin firmamentum meaning “support”).

If you can entertain this notion, and feel yourself underneath this massive curved wall of heaven, straining under the weight of the rainwater it holds back, then you are living on the earth our sages knew, for this is the world, the universe, of which the Bible conceived:

^{בראשית א:ו} וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים יְהִי רָקִיעַ בְּתוֹךְ הַמָּיִם וִיהִי מַבְדִּיל בֵּין מַיִם לָמָיִם. ^א:ז וַיַּעַשׂ אֱלֹהִים אֶת הָרָקִיעַ וַיַּבְדֵּל בֵּין הַמַּיִם אֲשֶׁר מִתַּחַת לָרָקִיעַ וּבֵין הַמַּיִם אֲשֶׁר מֵעַל לָרָקִיעַ וַיְהִי כֵן. ^א:ח וַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לָרָקִיעַ שָׁמָיִם...

 

^{Gen 1:6} God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the water, that it may separate water from water." ^1:7 God made the firmament, and it separated the water which was below the firmament from the water which was above the firmament. And it was so. ^1:8 God called the firmament Sky…

The idea of a firmament is entirely contradictory to modern planetary science; yet there God is, in our Torah, spending all of creation day number two fashioning it.

 

R. Isaac said: “[Shamayim should be parsed as a command:] Sa-mayim (“carry water”), i.e., it holds up water. [The heavens] were like milk in a dish; until a drip of rennet is put in it, [the milk] sloshes, but once a drop of milk is put in it, [the milk] congeals and becomes solid. This is the meaning of (Job 26:11): ‘The pillars of the heavens were shaky.’ A coagulant was placed in it, “and it was evening and it was morning, day two.” This follows that which Rav said: “They were liquid on day one, and on day two the congealed".

Job 37:18 Can you help him stretch (ר.ק.ע) out the heavens, firm as a mirror of cast metal?

Rashi went with the idea that the rakia is substantially the same material as the heavens, namely water, but that God congealed it so that it became “as hard as a mirror of cast metal” but as transparent as glass or clear water.

I wonder if it doesn't simply look older because of the flood.

 

Edited May 20, 2024 by RdJ

[dad2]

51 minutes ago, RdJ said:

Fish bowl?

Lately I had a dream. I saw an old clock in an upside down bucket, which was taken off and then the time started to tick. 

https://www.thetorah.com/article/my-encounter-with-the-firmament

The Torah describes God’s fashioning the firmament (רקיע) on the second day of creation. This piece of the universe, however, doesn’t actually exist—a problem obfuscated in my yeshiva education.

https://assets-global.website-files.com/5b8fd783bee52c8fb59b1fac/5f870cc49713c649d0c00e79_Firmament.jpeg

A fish-eye view of the Red sea in Israel, early spring.

Of all the vexing problems modern cosmology poses for the first chapter of Genesis, such as the insufficient biblical timeline of 6 days (as opposed to billions of years) until the appearance of humans, or vegetative bloom before the sun and photosynthesis, the most acute for me is God’s creation of the firmament (רקיע; rakia) on the second day.

If you are unfamiliar with the firmament, then imagine for a moment the horizon, where the earth appears to meet with the sky. Only try and picture it as a connecting point between two solids: a flat plate like earth, and a rigid dome like an upside down bowl that vaults it, blue as ocean, from the vast stores of water it contains. This is what the Bible is describing when it refers to הָרָקִיעַ, traditionally rendered in English Bibles as “the firmament” (from the Latin firmamentum meaning “support”).

If you can entertain this notion, and feel yourself underneath this massive curved wall of heaven, straining under the weight of the rainwater it holds back, then you are living on the earth our sages knew, for this is the world, the universe, of which the Bible conceived:

^{בראשית א:ו} וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים יְהִי רָקִיעַ בְּתוֹךְ הַמָּיִם וִיהִי מַבְדִּיל בֵּין מַיִם לָמָיִם. ^א:ז וַיַּעַשׂ אֱלֹהִים אֶת הָרָקִיעַ וַיַּבְדֵּל בֵּין הַמַּיִם אֲשֶׁר מִתַּחַת לָרָקִיעַ וּבֵין הַמַּיִם אֲשֶׁר מֵעַל לָרָקִיעַ וַיְהִי כֵן. ^א:ח וַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לָרָקִיעַ שָׁמָיִם...

 

^{Gen 1:6} God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the water, that it may separate water from water." ^1:7 God made the firmament, and it separated the water which was below the firmament from the water which was above the firmament. And it was so. ^1:8 God called the firmament Sky…

The idea of a firmament is entirely contradictory to modern planetary science; yet there God is, in our Torah, spending all of creation day number two fashioning it.

 

R. Isaac said: “[Shamayim should be parsed as a command:] Sa-mayim (“carry water”), i.e., it holds up water. [The heavens] were like milk in a dish; until a drip of rennet is put in it, [the milk] sloshes, but once a drop of milk is put in it, [the milk] congeals and becomes solid. This is the meaning of (Job 26:11): ‘The pillars of the heavens were shaky.’ A coagulant was placed in it, “and it was evening and it was morning, day two.” This follows that which Rav said: “They were liquid on day one, and on day two the congealed".

Job 37:18 Can you help him stretch (ר.ק.ע) out the heavens, firm as a mirror of cast metal?

Rashi went with the idea that the rakia is substantially the same material as the heavens, namely water, but that God congealed it so that it became “as hard as a mirror of cast metal” but as transparent as glass or clear water.

I wonder if it doesn't simply look older because of the flood.

 

The firmament actually is where the stars were put. Any interpretation of that being some sort of solid material is not sound.

As for your verse in Job, that was from Elihu - Not God! In fact God made it clear the guy was without wisdom and wrong.

Any wise person looking at comets and meteors and stars and the moon etc would know the movements had no connection to some metal nonsense.

As for the six day creation that was no problem at all for God. And you would be honest and wise to admit that science has nothing to say about it.

Edited May 20, 2024 by dad2

[RdJ]

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

The firmament actually is where the stars were put. Any interpretation of that being some sort of solid material is not sound.

As for your verse in Job, that was from Elihu - Not God! In fact God made it clear the guy was without wisdom and wrong.

Any wise person looking at comets and meteors and stars and the moon etc would know the movements had no connection to some metal nonsense.

As for the six day creation that was no problem at all for God. And you would be honest and wise to admit that science has nothing to say about it.

My christian geography teacher said that in high school, that there might have been a rakea before the flood, from hard water, because it never rained and they got very old, different atmosphere and then it was broken when the fountains of the great deep were opened.  I know that any creationist now says it's nonsense and you may not say it, but you can't just skip that text.

Edited May 20, 2024 by RdJ