Is the Church Christ?

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, 1to3 said:

Hello Marilyn;

This is interesting what you say from above.

So just to understand a litte better, are you saying that the saints= those saved in Christ Jesus are not the bride of Christ?

From my understanding of scripture

Ephesians 5:22-33

The Church as the Bride The Church is called the Bride of Christ and Christ is declared the Head of the Church, His Bride. As individual believers and as the Church we have an intimate relationship with Christ. This is a relationship that is closer than an earthly husband and wife relationship.

Hi 1to 3,

Thank you for having this important discussion with me. Now I was never taught that the wife and bride symbols were used for the Body of Christ. I looked at the scriptures that were used to support this view but saw that the scriptures did not say what some people thought.

When the Apostle Paul wrote to his disciples in Ephesus, to whom he gave the whole counsel of God, (Acts 20: 27) we see that he wrote of the revelation that the Lord had given him.  (Eph. 3: 1 - 6)

This revelation was that Christ was appointed Head of the Body, and that Body was the New Man. (Eph. 1: 22,  2: 15). Paul then goes on for four chapters to lay out the doctrine of the New Man and how it will eventually come to a Perfect Man. (Eph. 4: 13) 

Then after that unfolding of doctrine, Paul exhorts his disciples in their behaviour.

`walk in love....nor foolish talking....let no one deceive you....walk circumspectly...not unwise....speaking to one another....giving thanks....

wives submit....husbands love your wives.....children obey ...servants be obedient....be strong in the Lord..... ` (Eph. ch. 5 & 6) 

Eph. 5: 22 & 23 is an exhortation for husbands to love their wives. It is NOT a doctrine that the Body of Christ is female.

Christ the Head, (male) and His Body, (male).

Note the New Man is of male and female character. There are no sexual organs as there is no marriage in heaven. (Matt. 22: 30)

The Head and His Body is the closest relationship.

 

regards, Marilyn.

[Vine Abider]

11 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Eph. 5: 22 & 23 is an exhortation for husbands to love their wives. It is NOT a doctrine that the Body of Christ is female.

 

Here are some verses to consider regarding this:

Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.  Rev 19:7

For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.  2 Cor 11:2

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.  Eph 5:25

So that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. Eph 5:27

[Marilyn C]

28 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Here are some verses to consider regarding this:

Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.  Rev 19:7

For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.  2 Cor 11:2

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.  Eph 5:25

So that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. Eph 5:27

Hi VA,

Thank you for addressing the scriptures you think support that view.

Now, Rev. 19: 7 does not say the Body of Christ. And we know from Isa. 54: 5 & 6, that God calls Israel His wife and that He is her husband. Again, in Hosea we read of the Lord betrothing Himself to her. (Hos. 2: 19 & 20) Israel was rebellious and the Lord `divorced` her. (Jer. 3: 8). Thus we read of the Lord marrying again His wife, (Israel) when he returns in power and great glory. (Rev. 19: 7)

2 Cor, 11: 2  refers to the Apostle Paul desiring to present his disciples to the Lord, as pure. The apostle Paul does not present us to the Lord for it is the Lord Himself who will present us to Himself. (Jude 24)

Eph. 5: 25, the word is `it,` not her. Paul is exhorting men to love their wives. It is not a doctrine on the symbol bride. Paul has just given four chapters on the New Man, he is not then saying it is female.

 

Why do you think that men want to marry a man, (Jesus)? Do you tell your unsaved men friends, "Come to Jesus & be His bride?" 

This false teaching has just been assumed and not supported as a doctrine. It has gone so far today as people call certain songs, "Jesus my boyfriend songs." 

I would encourage you to take a good look at it.

[Your closest friendnt]

On 1/26/2023 at 4:18 PM, Marilyn C said:

A big Amen to all of that bro. Just what we need to focus on and discuss. As to the oneness of the Spirit we are told to - giving diligence to keep, earnestly striving to maintain, the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.` (Eph. 4: 3)

This shows that although we may not all agree on certain truths we are to still keep the unity that the Holy Spirit has between us. We don`t have to make that unity, but to keep it. 

Then there is another unity which is the unity of the Faith. And that is what the Holy Spirit is bringing the whole Body to as He clarifies the truths of the Lord. (Eph. 4: 13)

I have been thinking lately that as we recognise each other`s giftings in the Lord then we are able to receive of the Lord through each other. This then, by the Holy Spirit joins each to one another and allows the flow of the Spirit access through each. 

We may meet in public meetings or smaller groups, however the vital life of Christ by His Holy Spirit is the life source from one to another. The Head through His Body. Amazing and wonderful.

 

 

@Marilyn C

I am wondering what we can learn from the three first chapters of the book of revelation....

This is what was taking place before the Judgement of the Angels of the churches.

Each church had his own Angel who was in charge...

And there was not an Angel in charge of all the churches...

Each church had her own Angel "du fairs". 

Each Angel was in charge of its own church. 

We see Jesus as an outsider..trying to get involved in the affairs of the churches....

Revelation 1:12-13, 16, 

**12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.

** 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

**19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

[Marilyn C]

34 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

@Marilyn C

I am wondering what we can learn from the three first chapters of the book of revelation....

This is what was taking place before the Judgement of the Angels of the churches.

Each church had his own Angel who was in charge...

And there was not an Angel in charge of all the churches...

Each church had her own Angel "du fairs". 

Each Angel was in charge of its own church. 

We see Jesus as an outsider..trying to get involved in the affairs of the churches....

Revelation 1:12-13, 16, 

**12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.

** 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

**19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

Hi Your closest friendnt,

We need to remember that the Lord has made us `kings and priests,` NOT `Queens & priests.`  (Rev. 1: 6) Thus the Body of Christ, (male) is NOT female. (you said `her`)

Also, we see that the Lord, the Head has the 7 stars in His right hand. This indicates His great power and authority over the centuries and across the world.

Also we need to remember that God the Father gave all authority to His Son and He is above all - angels, demons, kings, etc. 

 

The Lord Jesus explains to John what the lampstand and stars represented. As the priest in the earthly temple would move amongst the lampstands and watch to keep their lights burning so it is that Christ, the Head of the Body, who moves amongst the churches makes sure that their lights, their witness of Him is true and clear.

And just as the seven stars, the Pleiades (Job 38: 31) control our planetary system from billions of miles away, so it is that Christ has administrative authority over the churches, His Body, supervising them over the centuries and throughout the world.

 

 

[Vine Abider]

31 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi VA,

Thank you for addressing the scriptures you think support that view.

Now, Rev. 19: 7 does not say the Body of Christ. And we know from Isa. 54: 5 & 6, that God calls Israel His wife and that He is her husband. Again, in Hosea we read of the Lord betrothing Himself to her. (Hos. 2: 19 & 20) Israel was rebellious and the Lord `divorced` her. (Jer. 3: 8). Thus we read of the Lord marrying again His wife, (Israel) when he returns in power and great glory. (Rev. 19: 7)

2 Cor, 11: 2  refers to the Apostle Paul desiring to present his disciples to the Lord, as pure. The apostle Paul does not present us to the Lord for it is the Lord Himself who will present us to Himself. (Jude 24)

Eph. 5: 25, the word is `it,` not her. Paul is exhorting men to love their wives. It is not a doctrine on the symbol bride. Paul has just given four chapters on the New Man, he is not then saying it is female.

 

Why do you think that men want to marry a man, (Jesus)? Do you tell your unsaved men friends, "Come to Jesus & be His bride?" 

This false teaching has just been assumed and not supported as a doctrine. It has gone so far today as people call certain songs, "Jesus my boyfriend songs." 

I would encourage you to take a good look at it.

I see the two translations of "she" and "her" in Ephesians can be "it" or a more neutral pronoun.

It's hard for me to see what you are saying as supported in a reading of these two verses:

Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.  Rev 19:7

For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.  2 Cor 11:2

And I can see some confusion about Israel being the bride - in my book she is, but she's just part of it.  Just like the NJ has names of both Jewish tribes and NT apostles written on it. I also believe the woman in Rev 12 is a composite vision of all God's saints, both old testament and new.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

I see the two translations of "she" and "her" in Ephesians can be "it" or a more neutral pronoun.

It's hard for me to see what you are saying as supported in a reading of these two verses:

Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.  Rev 19:7

For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.  2 Cor 11:2

And I can see some confusion about Israel being the bride - in my book she is, but she's just part of it.  Just like the NJ has names of both Jewish tribes and NT apostles written on it. I also believe the woman in Rev 12 is a composite vision of all God's saints, both old testament and new.

So VA, do your deeds make you righteous?

And will the Apostle Paul present you to the Lord? (Jude 24)

[coheir]

6 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

So VA, do your deeds make you righteous?

And will the Apostle Paul present you to the Lord? (Jude 24)

I could be wrong have been many times always hoping to be corrected PRN.

Husbandman was used as a person who cared for looked out for vineyards and such.

I thought the Lord using Husband was not meant as a man and woman marry but as one who caries for Israel and gives it what ever it needs to survive as the husbandman of a vineyard.

Even Noah was a husband man.

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by coheir

[Your closest friendnt]

41 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

So VA, do your deeds make you righteous?

And will the Apostle Paul present you to the Lord? (Jude 24)

Hi Marilyn, I am not stepping on your toes but we need to know what you thing about VA post...

He responded to your post about she ....her...we like to know if you agreed.

[Vine Abider]

48 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

1. So VA, do your deeds make you righteous?

2. And will the Apostle Paul present you to the Lord? (Jude 24)

1. No. Before initial salvation, I am made righteous by the imputation of one righteous act. After initial salvation, there is accountability for deeds done in this body (2 Cor 5:10), which are done as a result of source - if the source of my actions are Him, then those are righteous acts.  Those righteous deeds make up the garment of the bride in Rev 19:7.

2. Not sure how Jude 24 applies. But how do we sparse 2 Cor 11:2 as not being a bride? "For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ."