Will the Day of the Lord come as a thief, or will there be signs first?

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Selah7 said:

I believe we actually have two tribulations.  The first tribulation happens when the false messiah appears on earth first. (Revelation 12:7-17)

In Mark 13:11-23, the first tribulation is also being discussed.  
But then in verse 24, we come to the second tribulation.  Notice that it says after that tribulation in verse 24.
 
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
 
Mark 13:25  and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
 
This is the second tribulation which happens at the 7th trump at Christ's return.  This is God's tribulation—the wrath of God—Armageddon.
 
Mark 13:26  And then shall they see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
 
Mark 13:27  And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
 
There you have it—the two tribulations.

The Mark 13:24 verse is a parallel verse to the Matthew 24 version where Jesus said, after THE tribulation of those days. Both are referring to the days of great tribulation (GT) that Jesus spoke of.

What will CAUSE those days of GT Jesus spoke of? It will be the Beast and False Prophet, and all who work with them, to force all people to bow to their image and receive their mark, on the threat of being beheaded. Since God sends His warning to people not to take the MARK, in Revelation 14, we can be assured that those days of GT Jesus spoke of will not begin until after that warning - so late in chapter 14. This is confirmed because John saw the martyrs of the Beast system beginning to show up in heaven in chapter 15.

Then there is the OTHER use of GT as John used it in Revelation 7. John had just seen this great crowd, too large to number, in heaven. He was told, NOT how they suddenly got from earth to heaven, but rather, how EACH ONE (of the millions or billions) joined the others: they washed their robes in Jesus' blood. In other words, they were born again. That is how each one was there in heaven. But each one came OUT of a life of tribulation - a life away from God and away from His promises, with NO HOPE in this world. I believe God added up all that individual tribulation and came up with mega - great- tribulation. Therefore the GT John wrote of is the combined tribulation of life in the world of the millions or billions of saints making up this huge crowd.

This is the way I see it. I agree: two different uses of the two words, great and tribulation. Jesus spoke of one, and John wrote of the other.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Keras said:

Being kept from God's wrath, does not necessarily mean -removed from. Many Prophesies say how the Lord will protect His people thru it all. Isaiah 43:2, +

We who refute and speak against the 'rapture to heaven' doctrine, do so out of concern for our fellow Christians, who have been lied to and deceived by their teachers.

There is no definitive scripture that says God intends to take His people up to heaven in these end times. There are, in fact quite a few that say He won't:

John 3:13, John 17:15, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, 1 Cor 1:7-9, 1 Cor 10:13, 1 Peter 4:12-19, Jeremiah 25:29, Proverbs 10:30 Psalms 10:30, Psalms 37:29, Revelation 2:25-26

We are aware of the problem of many Christians, in that the 'rapture' is the only teaching for the Church, before Jesus Returns. One American I spoke to said: The rapture is all I have ever been taught. 

This is a very sad state of affairs, as this false theory has set up many to fall from their faith, when they expect to be raptured, doesn't happen. 

Here is a quote from Art Katz, a messianic Jew:     “Nothing has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship and maturity that can stand strong in faith, in these end times; than the mistaken idea of a rapture to heaven, so they won’t have to face the Lord’s wrath”.

What we are told to do when things get bad, is to 'Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved.' Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

 

Also, with the 'rapture' belief, you miss out on knowing the amazing promises of God, of how He will protect and bless His faithful people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. 

There are many prophesies telling us about God's plans, do not make the mistake of attributing His Blessings to the Jews. They have lost the Kingdom, Matthew 21:43, and we Christians, Jew and Gentile, are the inheritors of God's promises. Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:26-29, as followers of Jesus, the One true Israel, thru whom all the promises of God will be fulfilled.  2 Corinthians 1:20 

 

Anyone, if they choose, can stay behind, try to live through God's wrath on earth, meet the man of sin turned Beast, and lose their head.

I often wonder WHY, when God has a planned way of escape. Are you praying to be found worthy to escape these things?

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

TWO choices:
Be found worthy to escape all these things OR
Meet the Beast and lose your heads.

[Keras]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

TWO choices:
Be found worthy to escape all these things OR
Meet the Beast and lose your heads.

Third choice:    Stand firm in our faith to God and be taken to a place of safety, Revelation 12:14 and then get gathered to meet Jesus when He Returns, Matthew 24:31

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, Keras said:

Third choice:    Stand firm in our faith to God and be taken to a place of safety, Revelation 12:14 and then get gathered to meet Jesus when He Returns, Matthew 24:31

You may be the only one who believes in this third choice.

I agree, there will be a special place of protection for those living in Judea who flee into the wilderness. There are hints that they will flee towards Bosrah and Petra.

[Uriah]

On 1/28/2023 at 2:21 PM, iamlamad said:

How do we solve this apparent contradiction?

There is NO contradiction. Modern Americans (at least) have the wrong concept of the "thief in the night." People a silent entry while they sleep and when you wake up you think, "hey, something is missing! Someone has been in here as I slept."

 

Wrong. I would have been a violent situation. 

Mark 6:19- Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

Mat 6:20- where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

Strong's G1358- to be broken up, to be broken through

Mat 24:43- But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Also in Luke 12:39

Same word. Many people in ancient times lived in homes that were stones with mud mortar. A thief would break in through a weak area while the people inside would be terrified at what could happen. At the return of Jesus there will be one smashing event after another.

Luke 21:26-  People will faint from fear and expectation of the things that are coming on the world, because the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

[Keras]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You may be the only one who believes in this third choice.

We do not have any choice.  God will decide and if you think He will remove you before any trials and testing, you are very much mistaken. 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I agree, there will be a special place of protection for those living in Judea who flee into the wilderness. There are hints that they will flee towards Bosrah and Petra.

The people who will be taken to the place of safety, Revelation 12:14, will be the faithful people of God; Revelation 13:7 and Daniel 7:25. 

Those Christians who did not trust the Lord for their protection, must remain and face persecution. Revelation 12:17, Daniel 11:32

[DeighAnn]

On 1/28/2023 at 11:21 AM, iamlamad said:

Is it possible that the Day of the Lord have signs preceding and still come as a thief? That does not seem possible.

Both Paul and Peter tell us the Day will come as a thief, so with no warning. Yet, Joel tells us the sun will turn dark and the moon into blood before that great and terrible day of the Lord.

This seems to be a contradiction. How do we solve this apparent contradiction?

As a thief to those who don't know but those who do, they know the season and the events.  

 

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, Keras said:

We do not have any choice.  God will decide and if you think He will remove you before any trials and testing, you are very much mistaken. 

The people who will be taken to the place of safety, Revelation 12:14, will be the faithful people of God; Revelation 13:7 and Daniel 7:25. 

Those Christians who did not trust the Lord for their protection, must remain and face persecution. Revelation 12:17, Daniel 11:32

No choice? Think again: 

Luk:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

We have a choice whether we watch or don't, and whether we pray that we may be accounted worthy or not, to escape what is coming.

Sorry, but 12:14 is very much related to 12:6 and to those in Judea who will flee (probably on foot) Southeast out into the wilderness.
Question: do YOU live in Judea? 

12:17: Of course there will be many "tribulation" saints who missed the rapture for one reason or another, were left behind, then got serious with God and with the Son. They will be persecuted. Probably most will be overcome by the Beast. This will not be God's best for them, but they can still make it to heaven as we see in Revelation 15:1-3. God's best for them would have been for them to come to Christ BEFORE the pre-trib rapture. You know, the rapture Paul wrote of that will come just before wrath and the Day of His wrath.

[Justin Adams]

To answer the OP:  YES

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

There is NO contradiction. Modern Americans (at least) have the wrong concept of the "thief in the night." People a silent entry while they sleep and when you wake up you think, "hey, something is missing! Someone has been in here as I slept."

 

Wrong. I would have been a violent situation. 

Mark 6:19- Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

Mat 6:20- where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

Strong's G1358- to be broken up, to be broken through

Mat 24:43- But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Also in Luke 12:39

Same word. Many people in ancient times lived in homes that were stones with mud mortar. A thief would break in through a weak area while the people inside would be terrified at what could happen. At the return of Jesus there will be one smashing event after another.

Luke 21:26-  People will faint from fear and expectation of the things that are coming on the world, because the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

I am not sure this answers the question. IF there are signs preceding, the sun turning black and the moon appearing blood red, then all will know (according to Joel) that the start of the Day is imminent.

As you see it, can you say or agree that the Day of the Lord will be back to back with the rapture—no time between for signs?

(Thanks for answering my post."