For TempestTossed

[BlindSeeker]

BlindSeeker, I have just finished all of your post. Excellent! Thank you. I will save the file and read it again I am sure. I have always thought the woman in Rev. 12 was Israel, not the Church but I will compare the scriptures again. Would the

[Old Timer]

BlindSeeker, Thank you...

Back to the books

Your quote from Romans makes your point:

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

But is this the woman of Rev 12? Are you saying that Israel, only those that accepted God through faith are the woman?

But this, a few verses further down makes me realize how little I know.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

I confess I will have to read your initial post again and then look again to the above information. Chapter 12 of Rev. is seems to be pointing to the tribulation period (v.14)

For a dummy - expain "the earth" that swallows up the flood. And doesn't "the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ," seem to imply a portion of Israel that has converted? - and if so, then isn't the woman Israel, ALL of Israel? and I appreciate and am considering what you said in the above post, which I do not disagree with. I am just not sure that, in any way, she is the Church except for a part of her seed, the "remnant."

I see Rev. 12 through a span of time, from Genesis 3:15, the promise of the Messiah, the birth of Jesus, the death and resurrection of Christ, (verses 10-12), the preservation of Israel (the woman) through all history. And this brings me to the

Edited November 19, 2005 by Old Timer

[BlindSeeker]

I confess I will have to read your initial post again and then look again to the above information. Chapter 12 of Rev. is seems to be pointing to the tribulation period (v.14)

That can be a whole new thread . . . I prefer to reference it as the last days.

For a dummy - expain "the earth" that swallows up the flood. . . .

I cannot explain it with any certainty as it is both figurative and cryptic. My general persuasion it that God intervenes in unpredictable ways on behalf of His people to preserve them and their testimony. However, (even though I am not persuaded by them), I submit the words of Bishop Newton on this verse for your prayerful consideration on the matter.

"Nothing, and indeed, was more likely to produce the ruin and utter subversion of the Christian Church than the irruptions of so many barbarous nations into the Roman empire. But the event proved contrary to human appearance and expectation: the earth swallowed up the flood; the barbarians were rather swallowed up by the Romans, than the Romans by the barbarians; the heathen conquerors, instead of imposing their own, submitted to the religion of the conquered Christians; and they not only embraced the religion, but affected even the laws, the manners, the customs, the language, and the very name, of Romans, so that the victors were in a manner absorbed and lost among the vanquished."

"the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ," seem to imply a portion of Israel that has converted? - and if so, then isn't the woman Israel, ALL of Israel? and I appreciate and am considering what you said in the above post, which I do not disagree with. I am just not sure that, in any way, she is the Church except for a part of her seed, the "remnant."

The vision as a whole (I believe) does include by representation all of Israel with it

Edited November 19, 2005 by BlindSeeker

[Old Timer]

I think I had best put this aside for awhile. I know the older commentaries thought the woman was the Church and the newer see Israel. For example Charles Ryrie says:

[BlindSeeker]

When you make reference to Rev.18:4,