The 5th Seal : Global martyrdom of Christians and destruction of Christianity

[seeking the lost]

19 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Imho John saw 2 groups of people. Those in front of the Throne and those martyrs below the Altar. 

For this discussion, the position of the group is not as important as the description of who they are.  Rev. 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes

and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

They came out of the great tribulation.  These are the ones spoken of to the ones under the altar.  They were told about the day of vengeance that will come after others that should be killed will be killed.  Rev. 6:9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

[R. Hartono]

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Roy,

Yes, good points.

So neither Altar was actually in the Holy of Holies. The Altar of Incense being immediately in front of the curtain to the Holy of Holies.... and the Altar of Burnt Offerings being outside of the Holy Place.

The only  Altar  referenced in Rev 6:9-11 would  be the Altar of Sacrifice (or Burnt Offerings) as the saints that were under it were said to be slain for their testimony and for the Word of God. So in reality they were sacrificed.   

There is no mention of incense or prayers so we could probably rule out the Altar of Incense.

 

There is an Altar for incense in Rev 8 :

https://www.bibleref.com/Revelation/8/Revelation-chapter-8.html

[R. Hartono]

2 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

For this discussion, the position of the group is not as important as the description of who they are.  Rev. 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes

and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

They came out of the great tribulation.  These are the ones spoken of to the ones under the altar.  They were told about the day of vengeance that will come after others that should be killed will be killed.  Rev. 6:9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

How do you explain the wise virgins are taken alive to the wedding ? 

Are you the kind who beat your bride black and blue and killed her before marriage ?

[seeking the lost]

19 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

How do you explain the wise virgins are taken alive to the wedding ? 

Are you the kind who beat your bride black and blue and killed her before marriage ?

Many Christians will be killed just as he said.  They are subject to the rage of satan.  All those who have the seal of God are protected from the wrath of God.

[JoeCanada]

14 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

How do you explain the wise virgins are taken alive to the wedding ? 

Are you the kind who beat your bride black and blue and killed her before marriage ?

So...... are you saying that ONLY pure and spotless virgins, aka the bride, will be taken to the wedding?

Did God not send the Bridegroom to the earth to let the bride see Him?

And what did they do?

They beat Him black and blue, and tortured Him so that He was beyond recognition as a human, they pulverized His flesh and then hung Him on a cross for all to see!

Is a slave above His master?

The very first of the virgins were ALL tortured and killed  in like manner as their savior.

But you are suggesting that somehow WE ARE DIFFERENT?

We are the purest and holiest of the virgins?

"God would never allow His bride to be beat up black and blue before the wedding"..... is a blasphemous statement! It's calling God a wife abuser; a child abuser. 

May it never be so!

 

[R. Hartono]

9 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

So...... are you saying that only pure

 

Its the Bible that said the wise virgins are taken alive to the wedding so why you insist they must be beaten black and blue ? 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by R. Hartono

[JoeCanada]

3 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Its the Bible that said the wise virgins are taken alive to the wedding so why you insist they must be beaten black and blue ? 

 

What does Paul tell the church of the Thessalonians:

"We ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure....

This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.

The Thessalonian church was in tribulation. Heavy tribulation. Yup, getting beat up black and blue.

Afflictions...."thlipsis".... tribulation!

Are they not the bride of Christ?

3 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Its the Bible that said the wise virgins are taken alive to the wedding

I doubt it!

[R. Hartono]

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

What does Paul tell the church of the Thessalonians:

"We ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure....

This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.

The Thessalonian church was in tribulation. Heavy tribulation. Yup, getting beat up black and blue.

Afflictions...."thlipsis".... tribulation!

Are they not the bride of Christ?

I doubt it!

Thats right Bro. The test is right now. Not in the great tribulation. Therefore the wise virgins has passed the test and taken to the wedding of the Lamb, while the foolish virgins left behind on earth will be beaten black and blue during the wedding of the Lamb in heaven.

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by R. Hartono

[JoeCanada]

8 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Thats right Bro. The test is right now. Not in the great tribulation. Therefore the wise virgins has passed the test and taken to the wedding of the Lamb, while the foolish virgins left behind on earth will be beaten black and blue during the wedding of the Lamb in heaven.

Yes, the test IS right now, right here and now, in our tribulations and persecutions and afflictions, which many saints have endured since the crucifixion, and are still enduring trials and persecutions and afflictions today.

8 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

The test is right now. Not in the great tribulation

Do you think that in the great tribulation men will devise new ways to kill and torture people?

New ways that are more brutal than what the Nazi's did to Jews and Christians during the holocaust?

New and better ways that Nero used, or Islam, or China or??????

The great tribulation is great not in its intensity, but in it being  widespread. "Great"  is "megas" and means widespread, (on a global scale.) 

While there are some 50 countries in the world today that are persecuting Christians and Jews, the great tribulation will be ALL countries. 

All countries will participate in cleansing the world of Christians and Jews.

That's why it will be the Great Tribulation!

[Strict Machine]

On 6/4/2023 at 11:50 AM, Revelation Man said:

No he doesn't, John 5:43 was ALL ABOUT the Pharisees, it was fulfilled in 70 AD and Jesus warned about this in Matthew 24:4-6 which was about 70 AD false christs, not end time events. 

5:John 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Who is the YE ? The Pharisees who REJECTED Jesus as the Messiah sent from the Father. But then in 70 AD (see BELOW:) the Pharisees accepted other men as this Messianic Figure who they brought forth to try and save them from the Roman Fourth Beast as scriptures say the Messiah will do when he returns, they just did not understand there would be a 2000 year Church Age Period because they rejected Jesus as the Messiah. This is a well documented FACTOID, a few "Messianic type men" can be named in history around 70 AD.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.(Disciples in the 1st Century !! Not now)

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ(70 AD Events NOT END TIME EVENTS); and shall deceive many.

6 And ye(Disciples) shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (Jesus is saying the END or 70th Week is much later on, it will not be me coming in 70 AD................Verse 14 tells why, it was a fool proof Prophecy, the Gospel has to be spread all over the WHOLE WORLD, then the end or 70th week, will come. So, Jesus' Disciples knew he would not return in their lifetimes, they were told in verses 9-13 they would all be killed !! So, the 70 AD fake christs did not affect them at all.  It was only fulfilling John 5:43).

God Bless, believing something (like I did for 30 years) doesn't make it a fact.

wtf are you talking about?  i was referring to Rev 13 and probably 2 Thess 2:5-10, i think, not the verses you're talking about or the other crap you're accusing me of.  if you want to take your frustrations out on someone for not agreeing with everything you say, it doesn't have to be me.